Any evidence of Imperial resistance against the Thalmor? : V - Skyrim

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:37 am

From what I've seen, the Empire does not actually enforce the banning. Only the Thalmor do, and they are quite killable. There's even a huge statue and a priest preaching openly in Whiterun.

He mentions how Talos reshaped Cyrodiil into what we saw in Oblivion out of love :biggrin:

The empire endorsed it fully. They don't allow people to preach of Talos in Imperial cities, and those who venerate him are executed.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:15 pm

It's not going to happen. The empire already lost Valenwood, Elsweyr and Black Marsh. It really is just a matter of time, this "empire" is powerless. It is not the real empire. It's just a pathetic attempt to revive something that is already dead for good while claiming to be a continuation of it. When western Rome collapsed, many were those with the ambitions of restoring it. The Eastern Empire got close at a point, but the plague ruined it. No one ever succeeded.

Empire still has a better chance then a Stormcloak controlled Skyrim, though. The Empire at the very least have the support of a few groups such as the Orsimer they tried to save. But if the Nord Supremists in the Stormcloaks control their government, they'll quickly lose support from virtually every other province.

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:58 pm

Empire still has a better chance then a Stormcloak controlled Skyrim, though. The Empire at the very least have the support of a few groups such as the Orsimer they tried to save. But if the Nord Supremists in the Stormcloaks control their government, they'll quickly lose support from virtually every other province.

Don't count the Stormcloaks out due to potential loss of outside support. Their newer ideologies and fierce survivalist culture give them an edge over a crumbling bureaucratic mess that is Cyrodiil. They resemble Viking culture a lot, and the Vikings didn't rely on foreign support to bring Europe down. The Nords are known all over Tamriel not only as fierce warriors, but also as the finest sailors across the known world. I suspect they will hold much of Tamriel to ransom with seaborne invasions.

And let us not forget of their open hand towards the Dunmer. This may create Argonian enemies, but it shows of their ability for compassion, especially amongst old enemies. This shows us that the Nords are actually just jerks with a heart. They know they're the toughest thing since ebony mail, but they also respect life on a very religious scale, Human, Mer, Argonian, whatever. They don't care if Alduin is returned or if the armies which defeated Cyrodiil are plotting genocide against them, they will fight because that is what the brave do.

I'm very much anticipating that they gain many allies, even if only temporary to resist the Thalmor and separate completely from Cyrodiil. Tamriel is tired of the old order, and they most certainly do not want new masters such as the Thalmor.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:33 pm

Don't count the Stormcloaks out due to potential loss of outside support. Their newer ideologies and fierce survivalist culture give them an edge over a crumbling bureaucratic mess that is Cyrodiil. They resemble Viking culture a lot, and the Vikings didn't rely on foreign support to bring Europe down. The Nords are known all over Tamriel not only as fierce warriors, but also as the finest sailors across the known world. I suspect they will hold much of Tamriel to ransom with seaborne invasions.

The Nords are fine sailors, but they are not nearly as good at that as the Altmer. The Thalmor navy is probably much superior, Nords have little chance at winning on the sea.

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:59 am

The Nords are fine sailors, but they are not nearly as good at that as the Altmer. The Thalmor navy is probably much superior, Nords have little chance at winning on the sea.

"Probably." From what lore we know, the Nords were the Empire's go-to-sailors.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:23 am

Sigh...I can't tell whether I want the thalmor purged or those lizards purged first.

Get those bloody Altmer! KILL KILL KILL! (if you love the Altmer I am only playing... but really.. kill kill kill)

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:25 pm

And let us not forget of their open hand towards the Dunmer. This may create Argonian enemies, but it shows of their ability for compassion, especially amongst old enemies. This shows us that the Nords are actually just jerks with a heart. They know they're the toughest thing since ebony mail, but they also respect life on a very religious scale, Human, Mer, Argonian, whatever. They don't care if Alduin is returned or if the armies which defeated Cyrodiil are plotting genocide against them, they will fight because that is what the brave do.

I got the impression that the Dunmer refugees were something the old government did, before the high King was killed. You actually hear this quite a bit in Windhelm, Ulfric's headquarters: "We should gather up all the Dark Elves and Argonions and throw them into a pit. Let them tear each other apart."

Nords as a whole may have compassion, but I don't think Stormcloak politics will show that very well.

» Wed May 16, 2012 3:21 pm

We are allied with those blasted eleves for the duration of the civial war, once it is done and Tamriel has rebuilt its strength we will strike at out the Thalmor, and bring the Emprie back to its former glory.

No, your empire's time has come and gone. To think you've grown so weak as to submit to the Thalmor! The proud Nords of Skyrim will remind the citizens of the empire what it means to be warriors and we will show you all how our great Ysgramor and his 500 Companions were able to conquer where you have surrendered. :gun:

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:48 pm

Heh... if the Imperials are allied with the Thalmor until the end of the Civil War, all the Thalmor will have to do is to just start another civil war right when this one ends. Then, they can have the loyalty of the 'patriotic' until there aren't enough humans left to oppose their own genocide.

Gotta love patriotism.

Ryan Fenton

» Wed May 16, 2012 11:38 am

This is becoming a more difficult decision for me. I like Hadvar but I dislike the Empire for what it almost did to me. I also hate the Thalmor so I am uncertain if I should run the risk of working for the Imperial Legion if they are controlled by the Thalmor. If they end up regaining strength and fighting back at the Thalmor then it would make joining them much more of an easier decision. I don't think that Bethesda would allow genocide to occur and effectively piss everyone off haha. Invasion, refugees, territory disputes and slavery are one thing but genocide... yeah.. I have a feeling the Empire is biding it's time.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:38 am

All my counter points are in red. Only thing I agree with you is the Talos thing. Who knows, by Skyrim, they could just be full fledged allies.

Imagine the US Soldiers were wearing China uniforms. What then? I take the Elven Armour to be the Thalmor uniform or at least a sign of Thalmor armour, the fact that Legionaries forgo their own uniform to wear them sounds like an insult to the Imperials.

The like thing is more of proof that the Imperials aren't trying to resist them.

True about the Embassy.

We know that general tulias is opposed to them but has to work with them

Any proof? It would fit the "Imperial Resistance" very well indeed, and would instantly make my first character go Imperial if you can prove it. (I'm not asking for a link, maybe just say how you know such a thing or some other people that can back you up?)

This is becoming a more difficult decision for me. I like Hadvar but I dislike the Empire for what it almost did to me. I also hate the Thalmor so I am uncertain if I should run the risk of working for the Imperial Legion if they are controlled by the Thalmor. If they end up regaining strength and fighting back at the Thalmor then it would make joining them much more of an easier decision. I don't think that Bethesda would allow genocide to occur and effectively piss everyone off haha. Invasion, refugees, territory disputes and slavery are one thing but genocide... yeah.. I have a feeling the Empire is biding it's time.

It's almost exactly the same thing on my side, just without disliking the Empire for trying to execute me. That's why this thread was created - to find out if the Empire is even disliking the Thalmor.

» Wed May 16, 2012 3:42 am

The Empire has proven it likes to be top dog and doesn't like it when people disrupt that order. They have proven they will go to war just to keep the order and power. I think they really HATE the Thalmor but are biding their time.

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:04 am

The Empire has proven it likes to be top dog and doesn't like it when people disrupt that order. They have proven they will go to war just to keep the order and power. I think they really HATE the Thalmor but are biding their time.

True, that. If the Stormcloaks can rebel against the Empire, why can't the Empire rebel against the Thalmor? Don't try saying that the Stormcloaks are stronger now that the Legion is weakened; that will be if the Dragonborn sides with the Stormcloaks. Without factoring in the Dragonborn, the Legion is stronger than the Stormcloaks in terms of an army - The Legion is strong enough to fight head on but the Stormcloaks use hit and run tactics. Who can resist the Thalmor? This depends on who the Dragonborn sides with, IMO.

» Wed May 16, 2012 8:29 am

Spoiler

When you approach the marketplace in Markarth, you see someone being murdered. After killing the assassin, a Stormcloak guard arrives and says that everything is under control. The merchants, however, are all shaken by the events and refuse to sell you anything while lamenting on how utterly useless the guards have been in these recent killings. You are approached by somone, a bosmer I think he was, and are told to meet him in the shrine of Talos.

Once you meet him there, he tells you that 10 years ago his father was slain by the Forsworn and he has been investigating since. Unfortunately, now he has a wife and child and is unable to pursue his quest. He has guilty nightmares about his father though, so he recruits you to help him in his investigation. You then look in various places of Markarth for clues, one of which being a sort of poor slummy area. At various points of the quest, you are warned by Stormcloak guards to walk away as this is none of your business. You find out that it was a noble of Markarth who was working with and dispatching the assassins into the city from an old prison taken over by the Stormcloaks.

Eventually after finding sufficient evidence, you return to the Shrine of Talos but are ambushed by 4 Stormcloak guards who apparently 'silenced' your quest giver. You are then offered a choice: go to the prison and mine silver with the Forsworn or be executed on the spot "for the crimes you've commited". If you choose to resist, every guard in the city becomes hostile and you start racking up a bounty.

If instead you choose to surrender, all your items will be taken and you'll awake in the mine. Upon talking to the other inmates, you find out that most, if not all of them were simply innocent civilians who were injustly brought here to mine until their death. Most have been there from around 2-6 years. One person in particular tells you of how he was sentenced to death by the Stormcloaks. His daughter offered to be executed instead so that he may live. They lived up to their end of the bargain by letting him live as a slave in the silver mine. He was literally crying as he tells you that she would have been 23 this year.

Whatever the Forsworn were in the past, now they are simply innocent men and women unjustly imprisoned by the Nord Supremists in the Stormcloaks. They are offered promises of release or a slighty better living if they go and kill certain individuals in the city.

Evil it shows how EVIL THE DAMM STORMCLOAKS ARE!

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:50 am

In all honesty - the Empire as it stands will eventually fall. Nothing lasts forever.

I, however - do not agree that the Thalmor will be its harbinger of destruction.

What do the Thalmor want? The eradication of all human races. Redguards, Imperials, Bretons, and Nords.

Hammerfell has seceded from the Empire, if I remember correctly. Skyrim and High Rock are set to do so, as well. However, even if the Stormcloaks win the war in Skyrim - I wouldn't count out the Empire.

Leaders of governments are often quite intelligent. If they aren't, they have advisors that are. There is simply no way in hell that Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim would sit idly by if the Thalmor marched on Cyrodiil. If Cyrodiil falls - their nations are next. They will without a doubt know this.

If I remember correctly - the Dunmer dislike the Thalmor, so they might not even join the struggle. Even if they did - they are an exhausted, and battered people. I don't think they have much of a military left if they have one at all.

The Khajiits are contempt in their deserts and jungles. Screw them.

The Argonians? They'll likely aid the Imperial forces. For the same reasons they conquered Morrowind. The Empire abolished Slavery - after all.

I don't remember hearing anything about the Orcs, however I imagine they'd aid whomever paid the most.

I foresee another treaty in the works. In exchange for helping Cyrodiil defeat the Thalmor - each nation will have the option of seceding from the Empire if it so wishes. I think this is how the Empire will crumble.

Just my random thoughts on the discussion. :tes:

» Wed May 16, 2012 4:50 am

The wind just changed directions that's all. When the Empire topples someone else will rise. Life will move on, whether it is for the better or worse that will remain to be seen.

» Wed May 16, 2012 2:03 pm

Sigh...I can't tell whether I want the thalmor purged or those lizards purged first.

Dragons or Black Marshians?

» Wed May 16, 2012 3:59 pm

In all honesty - the Empire as it stands will eventually fall. Nothing lasts forever.

I, however - do not agree that the Thalmor will be its harbinger of destruction.

What do the Thalmor want? The eradication of all human races. Redguards, Imperials, Bretons, and Nords.

Hammerfell has seceded from the Empire, if I remember correctly. Skyrim and High Rock are set to do so, as well. However, even if the Stormcloaks win the war in Skyrim - I wouldn't count out the Empire.

Leaders of governments are often quite intelligent. If they aren't, they have advisors that are. There is simply no way in hell that Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim would sit idly by if the Thalmor marched on Cyrodiil. If Cyrodiil falls - their nations are next. They will without a doubt know this.

If I remember correctly - the Dunmer dislike the Thalmor, so they might not even join the struggle. Even if they did - they are an exhausted, and battered people. I don't think they have much of a military left if they have one at all.

The Khajiits are contempt in their deserts and jungles. Screw them.

The Argonians? They'll likely aid the Imperial forces. For the same reasons they conquered Morrowind. The Empire abolished Slavery - after all.

I don't remember hearing anything about the Orcs, however I imagine they'd aid whomever paid the most.

I foresee another treaty in the works. In exchange for helping Cyrodiil defeat the Thalmor - each nation will have the option of seceding from the Empire if it so wishes. I think this is how the Empire will crumble.

Just my random thoughts on the discussion. :tes:

Based on the real world, it's true that nothing lasts forever, especially not Empires.

I believe Hammerfell is still part of the Empire though. I agree that once Cyrodiil falls the rest of the nations are next. From Cyrodiil, the Thalmor can have access to many of the other provinces. Also, the more land they occupy, the more resources they will have at their disposal, although governing all that land becomes harder.

» Wed May 16, 2012 12:55 pm

*Snip*
although governing all that land becomes harder.

Which has already happened with the Cyrodiilic Empire, and every Empire in actuality. History really is doomed to repeat itself, huh? =D

» Wed May 16, 2012 9:40 am

"Probably." From what lore we know, the Nords were the Empire's go-to-sailors.

Which doesn't make them the best sailors, truly. From what we know the Altmer had to build a terrific navy to defend themselves from the Sload and the Maormer. Even Tiber Septim couldn't do anything to the Altmer until he got the aid of Numidium. The Altmer truly excel at sea, not at land, as is noted in several books. If they could be on par with the Empire on a war, considering that their strength lies on their navy, and that much of the Dominion is insular, they must be very good sailors. The Altmer live in an archipelago, they actually need a navy to do anything. Nords really excel at land, and their only naval history lies with the arrivals from Atmora.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:20 pm

Added General Tullius' apparent disapproval of the Thalmor but having no choice but to tolerate them on orders to the OP. I'd say it's as reliable as many of the other info on these spoiler forums, considering their origins.

» Wed May 16, 2012 6:12 am

I wonder how all the people who were so excited about playing as Altmers feel about it now, considering the circumstances. Maybe in a later playthrough I'll make a pro-Thalmor Altmer and choose the Imperial side, that could be interesting.

» Wed May 16, 2012 5:01 pm

Do the Thalmor have anything to do with Alduin returning? If Alduin destroys Mundus, the Altmer can once more become divine, it's pretty much returning to the state before the interference of Lorkhan.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:47 pm

I wonder how all the people who were so excited about playing as Altmers feel about it now, considering the circumstances. Maybe in a later playthrough I'll make a pro-Thalmor Altmer and choose the Imperial side, that could be interesting.

Pro-Thalmor could be one way to go, but it's not the only way. The Thalmor may have gave Altmers a bad name, but some Altmers dislike the Thalmor as well, so they don't have to be pro-Thalmor. I also think that a selfish Altmer wouldn't be too lore-breaking.

EDIT: @grelf

I read that some Blades think the Thalmor are associated with Alduin's return.

» Wed May 16, 2012 7:18 pm

I wonder how all the people who were so excited about playing as Altmers feel about it now, considering the circumstances. Maybe in a later playthrough I'll make a pro-Thalmor Altmer and choose the Imperial side, that could be interesting.

Well, I am pretty sure that the Thalmor of Summerset look down on other Altmer that are not from Summerset (Such as Chancellor Ocato from Oblivion). It doesn't matter how prestigious you are, to them, you are not as pure as the Summerset Altmer. Most likely the player's Altmer will not be native to Summerset (sort of like in Morrowind, the player's Dunmer was not from Morrowind).