So as everyone (probably) knows, most forums on the internet, especially this one, have arguments over RPGs and even other genre of games being "dumbed down" to appeal to casual or mainstream gamers. On this forum especially, there are a lot of debate between Morrowind and Oblivion.

I am not here to start this war again, for I am just wondering what elements people think Skyrim should incorporate to appease both groups? I know this in itself will be impossible, but in my humble opinion games such as Minecraft have solved this issue to a higher degree. Although, granted, Minecraft is a much simpler game. You have one group which are just casual players that go on once in a while to build a house and mine in some caves, while others spend days of their lives to build huge starships and skyscraqers.

I know this might not belong in Skyrim's forum, but I feel like it has to do with the game in some way, given the whole Morrowind vs Oblivion debate.

In short, what things do you guys think this game should incorporate so both Oblivion and Morrowind (even older games such as Daggerfall and Arena) fans would not be disappointed?

I hear what you're saying, and I definitely agree they should have the best from both games. I also hope Skyrim introduces something revolutionary, that neither game has.

Multiplayer discussion is off topic for this thread and posts about it have been removed. There is an entire thread devoted to that discussion.

As to the topic at hand, I find most folks who play RPGs are not casual gamers. Some just have different ideas about what makes a game good or bad. And if anyone makes comments to slam another in this thread by calling them a "casual gamer" the thread will be locked. It's not something to be tossed around as an insult. We take a hard line on insulting other members here so don't use the term to do so. Nobody here is that "bad assed".

Optional hardcoe mode with customizable hardcoe features.

For instance:

Food Requirement Y/N
Hydration Requirement Y/N
Sleep Requirement Y/N
Quest Compass: Y/N
Fast Travel: Y/N
etc.
etc.
etc.

Instead of having arguements about what to implement to appeal to the casual or the hardcoe, let the player decide.

Maybe I want to play through the first time with normal settings then take a shot at hardcoe with my next character, let me choose what I want to do.

Agree wholeheartedly. They added a hardcoe mode to FO:NV and IMHO it worked very well. It gave an extra challenge and an added dose of realism for those who wanted it as an extra playable option but didn't penalize those who chose to go for the normal play through mode. With the ever-growing casual gamer population this is the best form of compromise to appease the more hardcoe fans who prefer the challenge of Morrowind while at the same time the complexity and/or difficulty wouldn't alienate any of the casual gamers new to the Elder Scrolls franchise.

For Example: hardcoe mode could eliminate that hand holding red arrow on your compass in Oblivion that took almost any form of difficulty out of the questing

I am unclear on the difference between casual player and mainstream player.

At first glance it would seem to me that making a game casual ticks off the "hardcoe player", and making it hardcoe'ish would discourage the casual player because it was too involved... but I have to wonder why a casual player would play an RPG in the first place ~because its seems to me that RPG's are generally considered better the more involved that they get. :shrug: I know that I cannot just fire up Planescape and play it for ten minutes, I mean what's the point? But I can easily fire up Doom2, Blood, Zuma, etc... and spend the ten minutes having a blast at it. I don't think that I'd like a Planescape that played like Blood and Blood is my favorite shooter to date.

(I guess I'm asking why design an RPG for the casual player, when to succeed at it is to design away from what most RPG players would consider important in a good RPG? :confused:)

the terms 'casual' and 'hardcoe' are loose and ill defined. so discussing them is hard

i think an optional hardcoe mode or something similar is an excellent idea. something i loved in oblivon was the difficulty slider. as i mainly rp i couldn't care less about making the game challenging. thats not fun to me. so i usually left it very low at around 25-30%. that helped my rping and made the game more fun for me. however not everyone, dare i say most people, would not find that fun. the more options on how the gmae works the better, that way everyone can play the game in the way that works best for them.

So is everyone else, since there is no real definition. Basically: The hardcoe hate on the casual/mainstream as ruining everything in gaming, they hate back at the hardcoe for being delusional elitists, both sides are wrong about everything, and since nobody actually knows which undefined team they're on they just play the victim/winner to the situation as per their own preferences on which games they like better between the ones being talked about (while, of course, declaring that their preference is irrefutable fact).

Haha, true.

You're not hardcoe if you don't eat sleep and breathe Starcraft. It's fact because I said so. Noobs.

Both sides see that the games the other prefers are not generally games that they would prefer, but I don't agree that either is wrong, as both are judging preference from their own perspective. I'd say they are both right, and developers are looking at the relative size of the two groups and developing to suit the most lucrative of the two. Finding the happy medium is tricky, but means a good number of both will like the game (to varying degree).

I am unclear on how favoring Morrowind over Oblivion would make you "hardcoe". I certainly do prefer the former, and I play one or two games a year, how's that for casual.

But this is just mere terminology. I agree for the idea of optional settings. For instance, my main gripe, the bleeding Oblivion pop-ups. Put them in if you have to, Bethesda, but at least give me the option of getting rid of them.

The deeper, more complex, more content the better. Let the neophytes fend for themselves like we all did at one point. I'm tired of the gaming industry catering to the lowest common denominator. We don't need the thousandth bland action game this quarter, we need another deep RPG. There's only like two or three for the 360. Computer gaming is going the same way to an extent. The ill equipped will either adapt to the depth of an ES Title, or they'll go back to their cup of teas.

:lmao:
Reminds me of some years ago when I was talking to another gamer I know. He did a radio show out of Fairbanks at the time that was on for 30 min. every Wed. night. I mentioned that I was a "casual" gamer. I based that definition on not having the time to play games everyday or even most days. I also based it on the fact that I did not play any shooters at the time. I played Mario and fun stuff like that but I also played Fallout. The first one. He said and I quote, "Summer, casual gamers don't play RPGs and especially not Fallout. He and I played D&D together for years. He felt that experience along made someone a hardcoe gamer.

But all these years later I learned here via many debates, reading others debates and getting a general feel of what folks here think "hardcoe" means and I have learned that I may be a "casual" gamer.

I don't see what it matters as long as you enjoy the game. I don't enjoy having to make sure I eat and make sure I drink some water and enemies I must shoot in the head 40 times to put them down. I mean, that is one lucky bastard. I like the journey, seeing my decisions make a difference, seeing my character grow stronger in the areas he was meant to. I like the exploration, consequences for my actions, the story, the lore.

That said, I don't care where one puts me in this whole silly little unending debate, as long as they don't put me in a room without coffee I'm fine.

Wouldn't be impossible at all. I stated in a previous post all they would have to do is simply make an option that allowed for multiple leveling systems.. choose a choice before beginning the game, casual or hardcoe leveling system and play. I personally don't see how that could be a hard thing to implement. I don't see any drawbacks as it is a single player game. The only thing stopping them from doing something like this would be they hadn't thought of it or they're afraid to be the first ones to try something like it.
As we've seen with mods there are many different ways one can level.. there was even a successfully done Oblivion xp mod. The more options the more appeal there is to a wider range of players the more money the game makers can make from a game. It seems like it would be a logical step in gaming to start creating games that are totally customizable to the way the player wants to play.. it would also extend the life and fun a player could get out of a game.

I'm all for "Worm Ouroboros" over "the Dreamland Chronicles" (though I seem to like both ~just not in equal measure. :tongue: ).

I think it depends on what your definition of a "hardcoe" and/or "Casual" Gamer is.

this is a brilliant idea but one that i fear would be dififcult to implement.

Here's the best answer you can really give:

TES appeals to too many audiences to achieve a unified vision. Therefore, we will never have a universally perfect TES. It is often difficult to grasp the idea that the most important element of my fun is detrimental to your fun, and that your idea of fun is frustratingly bad game design to me. As a community, we need to look past "casual", "old-school", and hardcoe to understand "how" and "why" we play the games the way we do and want the things we want. Or we can have the mods babysit us forever. It does no good to explain over and over why your idea of fun MUST be fun. Take "don't let warriors cast spells at all!" as an example. There are people here who literally can't understand how this would be incredibly "NOT FUN" for everyone else. We, likewise, can't understand why it isn't fun for them to be able to trample archetypes on a whim. There will be no agreement without actually getting to know each other, and even then, one must accept that all opinions on fun are equally invalid.

Therefore, the best thing TH and crew can do is ignore every specific mentioned. Don't get into "we want X back and Y dropped". Get into "why are people playing TES instead of other games? How do we make a game around that? What can we do to bring people in and make them welcome, while maintaining what makes us TES?"

This would seem to undermine the accomplishment for just having the option. I'm reminded that some older D&D games tracked the number of times one re-rolled their character's stats and made permanent note of it. Perhaps if the game effectively marks the save-game for "cheating" (as some would consider it), then it could work ~because the accomplishment would be to have a PC that was not so marked. :shrug:

Of course it does and since there is no standard definition everyone has their own personal definition so it has no meaning. :shrug:

yeah but this rational approach means that we can't have 30 page topics debating whether daggers or stiletos should be in TES

You just won my post of the year award. Congratulations. :spotted owl:

We could have an advlt conversation.

Don't really see how it could be difficult.. Mod on, mod off.. toggle switch between playing modes. My fantasy dream game would be a completely customizable game... I'm not a programmer or anything so I have no idea how anyone would even go about writing such a game but I think about it a lot.. and then I wish I had enough money so I could start a company to create that. There was a game a long time ago called RPG maker.. that wasn't all that great. But I really thought then that they were on the right track.. but it didn't go anywhere because you the player had to actually create the game. I imagine just being able to choose options and then the "game" programs itself to your specifications, creates it's own storyline with full voice acting.... I feel like singing daydream believer all of a sudden. It's no wonder that I get more and more disappointed in games as I age... they just don't live up to my imagination. As my father would say.. "They promised we'd have Jet packs back in the 60's.. Where's my jetpack?"

as long as they continue to improve on combat, like how oblivion improved upon morrowind.