That song is an eargasm. I was wish there was more epic music like that in Oblivion and Morrowind. Btw, there's a version of that song with more trumpets I've heard, but I can't find it on youtube, do you know it?

This is a good song also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQa5E559m_I&feature=related

No, I did not realize that. Besides, that song could be much better if it was remade. They should remake this song for TES V. It's nice, but it's easy to hear it's age. Morrowind and Oblivion have better soundtracks, in my opinion. The songs sound like they are made with actual instruments in Oblivion and Morrowind, but Daggerfall's are just not. They get annoying and repetitive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWuNf4gxwuM is just beautiful. That other one just isn't the same, and even if it was remade with a more instrumental sound, it would never come close to the song in that link, in my opinion.

I view graphics as icing on the cake, I don't need mind blowing graphics to have fun playing a game. I think too much emphasis is put on graphics these days, especially when you lose out of the core aspects that made the previous games so great.

Fun Fact: Daggerfall had level scaling. It was just done to the point where it wasn't slapping you in the face the entire game. If the devs feel they NEED level scaling to make sure people wont die and get mad, then they should at least make it a little challenging and implement a system likeDaggerfall's.
Fun Fact 2: The only guilds in Daggerfall that have ONLY dungeon diving quests are the knightly orders. The other guilds have a mix, and some have no dungeon quests at all. Also, you can actually say no to a quest and not have your entire guild progression come to a screeching halt, there are other quests you can take! It's a good thing. You can even FAIL at doing a quest and still take others and advance *gasp*.

IMO Oblivion is certainly dumbed down, most of the reasons are already mentioned in this thread. I hope they reverse the trend, but I'm doubtful.

The Daggerfall custom character generation is fantastic. All the pros and cons, the advantages and disadvantages, dice roles, special traits, are sorely lacking in recent games. I can see why they would ditch some of the skills/ideas of the previous games (but I don't have to like it). I honestly feel that things like the court system would confuse people today, not only because I don't think most would take the time to read about how it works, but they would probably be upset at the fact that they were even able to be arrested in the first place. One of my favorites moments in DF was when I got busted stealing something and was subsequently tried and found guilty, but I was a high enough rank in the thieves guild that they actually bribed the judge to let me go with no jail time! The Dark Brotherhood will also do that if you are in good standing with them. Little things like that are great. They got rid of the complexity to simplify the game down to make it more accessible for a wider audience, I get it; But I still don't see why they would take out things like actual weather/seasons, holidays, etc. New or old school, EVERYONE can enjoy those things.

*EDIT*
Daggerfall music irritating and repetitive? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8EaL1Zm6w!

But seriously, I love DF's music to death, it really sets the atmosphere for me. It's pure win IMO.

Sadly, those thing disappeared, and it started with Morrowind. People can deny it, but Morrowind is more simplified. It wouldn't have been too hard to keep more skills, have advantages and disadvantages for your class, have alternate paths in factions, have holidays, and have seasons.

Well, the only reason you can actually enjoy the holidays in Arena and Daggerfall is because the fast travel takes many days. Same with the seasons. In Morrowind and Oblivion, the land area has been scaled down in favour of hand-made, beautiful enviroments, rather than flat wasteland.

I think it's a good trade off. If they could include both, more power to them.

I thought people say graphics don't matter, but they support beautiful environments(not specifically you, but I thought Morrowind fans generally don't care for better graphics if they hold back gameplay, such as in Morrowind)? :huh:

When we mean we don't care about better graphics, we mean that we don't want the story and gameplay to suffer because the game just HAD to have ultra-graphics. But we support highly detailed enviroments that really draw you into to just exploring the wilds. As in, we don't care about fancy graphics, but we like it when they add to the gameplay. That's why Morrowind was great.

MIDI was needed at the time the game is made as the format smaller then the music file we have right now, not to mention the computer in the past are not that powerful or have the space to hold the music file we have today. And in my opinion, I find the music pleasing and well done for whatever the event occurs.


Again, its more of a tradeoff when the conversion from Daggerfall to Morrowind take place. Many of the skill were remove (Language being the biggie) , but some skill emerge in Morrowind that can be use that wasn't in Daggerfall (Armor class, Spears, Alchemy). Generated places were replace with hand place stuff and more on what Verlox said on the his post.

Those graphics are taking away from the gameplay. Why is it okay for Morrowind to be nice-looking, but not for Oblivion?

Whoa, wait, what? How do Morrowind's graphics detract from its gameplay? Or do you mean Oblivions?

As for Oblivion...We don't have a problem with the graphics. In a way, they don't even screw with gameplay overmuch. It's the was the plot was presented we have a problem with.

because it took away from the gameplay and also managed to be less detailed.

I get the feeling you're only playing DF so you can just say Morrowind was WAY dumbed down from DF as i've noticed you've been doing throughout this whole thread

The problem with Oblivion, from a Morrowind player's perspective, isn't that it's pretty.

It's that it isn't an updated version of Morrowind. There were some nice things added at the expense of others, which should have stayed.

I'm all for companies like Bethesda putting effort into upgrading the graphics, but not at the expense of the in-game universe. Oblivion's not a BAD game at all...it's one of my favorites. One of my very, very dear favorites and I'd buy it all over again. But I'd rather have had them take another year or even two and release a game that was more like Morrowind but with Oblivion's graphics, in retrospect. That game just got it RIGHT in so many ways, and I hear Daggerfall was even better in the immersion/political element.

Yeah, I hope they return to this in the next game,but I dont think will


ps I had a daydream yesterday that the next game take place in high rock

Ehhh...I wouldn't dislike that. But I would prefere a exotic location. Skyrim is alright because it's...well, Skyrim. Mead chugging nords who fight makes everything better.

If it was up to me, though, I would place the game in both Valenwood and Elsywere, the two smallest provinces. And since the two people of those provinces have a history of wars with each other, that would provide you with some fun political stuff. Summurset Isle would also be awesome.

Who would spend their time on a game they are not enjoying just to say Morrowind is dumbed down? I could do that without playing Daggerfall. I'm playing Daggerfall because it is more complex than Morrowind and Oblivion. I like the game, and even near the beginning, I saw clear differences between Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. This thread is about those differences. I didn't say Morrowind is way dumbed down, but it is a step in the direction that led to Oblivion. Morrowind's graphics do take away from its gameplay. According to a post in this thread, Morrowind doesn't have many things that were present in Daggerfall in return for a nicer game world, a more pleasant-looking gameworld. That is new, I've never heard that before, but if it is true, than gameplay did suffer a result of better graphics in Morrowind's case, but all of a sudden, we get to Oblivion and there are some people who criticize Oblivion for doing the same thing that Morrowind did. :confused:

This is under the assumption that Daggerfall is the end-all be-all. Which it isn't. To some of us, Daggerfall is just "meh" rather than "OMG AMAZING!" It's not a bad game, oh my heavens no, DF just isn't great.

You.

Seriously though, Morrowind made a more saturated game world. Graphics came with the package deal.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind you Daggerfall is not insanely complex. Again.

So, here's an interesting question. Which do you like better, Daggerfall or Oblivion?

PorridgeisGood, no I wouldn't. Just because I compare the two games doens't mean there is a hidden reason why I am playing a game. I like the game. Am I to assume that Morrowind players play Morrowind only to call Oblivion dumbed down? I play Daggerfall because I like it and I call Morrowind dumbed down because I think it is dumbed down. I think Oblivion is even more dumbed down, yet I still like both Morrowind and Oblivion.

Overall? Hmm...Good question. Each has good selling points, while having pretty big detracters. But if I have to make a choice, I would have to say Oblivion.

I like Oblivion better than any other game. It's just my favorite. I like all TES games, please don't believe I don't. I just want to see more complexity, and I don't think it should be hard at all just to add some seasons, holidays, wider variety, more lore, more depth, and more armor slots, as well a court system. I like all of those features, but I hate level-scaling. I want all of this with good graphics. Oblivion could have easily been even greater than it already is.

Then if Morrowind is not insanely complex, but it is more complex than Morrowind, what do you consider Morrowind to be? It's definitely not more complex than Daggerfall.

Amen. Not to point fingers, but the OP kind of confuses me. He's an Oblivion player first and foremost, but he also enjoys Daggerfall's complexity and questions why it's gone, but also completely ignores the fact it's from 1996 to complain about some technical flaws. At the same time, he's completely detached from Morrowind and think its content is diluted compared to Daggerfall's. I know this is a comparison/progression thread, but seti, just curious - just what exactly is your favorite game here?

And I would not consider Daggerfall an obscenely complex game that only people with esoteric computing skills can run (Daggerfall crashes for me less often than Morrowind and Oblivion do). I would not say that its gameplay and content is on a higher level of thinking, but rather that the game is rougher around the edges - there's more factors you have to consider when raiding a dungeon or doing a quest. More ways to mess up, more things to look out for. Both engine-wise (corrupted saves) and game-wise (lethal diseases, massive faction declines, etc). Some things were thrown out for the better, really - and in the case of Daggerfall to Morrowind, many amazing new things were added in, such as Alchemy.

The problem with Oblivion is simply that it did not build upon Morrowind's successful formula. Todd stated during Oblivion's E3 teaser that Bethesda likes to start fresh and re-invent the wheel with each Elder Scrolls installation. Hit and miss, really. :shrug:

I don't think you understand. To add seasons and holidays, they would have to do some things, notabley making the game world enormous. And I mean huge. Like I said in a previous post, the only reason you see holidays and seasons in Arena and Daggerfall is because of all the fast traveling and how long it takes. Yes, you can walk between settlements and out in the wilderness in Daggerfall, but it offers nothing. It's all randomly generated flat land, but on occasion the game will throw a small valley; or maybe even a slope. Which you may fall through.


Morrowind has most of these, excluding the court system. And Daggerfall has only the most minimum of court proceedings.

"What are his crimes?"

"Vagrancy"

"Guilty or not guilty."

"Uh...Not guilty, your honour."

"You are banned forever from the city of Daggerfall."

This actually happened to me.

And I have to agree with the fact that Daggerfall is not really that complex. Remove the mind-numbing, hellish dungeons, and make you pick from only the pregenerated classes, and you got a very simple game on your hands.

The problem with level scaling is the way a character can infinitely advance in power... A Tabletop D&D rule I've come to love is http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719... Finding a way to convert the spirit of that to TES would be really fun, as it keeps the world a challenge without leading to absurdities like Glass-wearing bandits.

And as far as holidays go... reinstating them could be fun and possibly not to difficult. Even if you are unlikely to experience all of them in any given game, with improvements in scheduling, having holidays and dynamic weather (Including seasons) would be a really nice touch...

I like to look at in the Conan style. The big bosses are super-tough magic guys, their elite minions can sometimes give Conan a run for his money. But, dammit, when I get to level 10, I wanna be able to slaughter faceless mooks like sheep.


I agree totally. If they could implement this, without forcing fast-travel and keeping a detailed gameworld, hell yes.