Did Fallout 4 dumb down its RPG?

Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:22 am

I agree completely. The combat, crafting (Weapons and robots, not settlements. The settlement system is really clunky.) and character creation are great.

That has nothing to do with Fallout 4's RPG mechanics and everything to do with it's settlement system.

Of course it is, I'm done giving my reasons like I have in past discussions like this because the other side will ignore my arguments and repeat theirs like a broken record. These threads will always be pointless because as you can see on the poll above the community is basically split 50/50 in these forums. All that happens in these kind of threads is people cream at each other and ignore each other's opinions. Both sides think the other they are right and the other side is wrong and they will try to pointlessly argue until they are blue in the face to get the opposite side to see their way. The only problem is that will never happen.

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Jonathan Windmon
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:28 pm

The only mechanics the game seems to have is shoot and loot. Which I will adamantly admit are superior to the other 2 games in the 3d world. It is slightly deeper than 3.

Yet it is still a mile wide and a foot deep in most regards. They are even at the point of over using not just the 40s-50s motif, which still irks me, but even their "atmosphere storytelling" skeletons sitting around a bar, stuffed bears in precariously precarious positions, another skeleton in a toilet...

Not many things in the game make sense, settlers complain if you dont make them a bed. Then they will use your bed instead. People living with skeletons and trash lying around their store or home..and the leveling system?

Its shallow and it's bad. Just like skyrims was. Its no wonder the one of the top mods for skyrim literally guts Bethesdas perk system. Im sure the same will happen for Fallout.

It boils down to force multipliers. And that is all that the game is, see something? Shoot it, you have +80% damage with that perk and a gun that somehow sets people on fire with armor that defends better against mirelurks.

I would take any of the other games leveling rather than what has been offered. Granted, their shooting and looting are nice. If you like borderlands. I personally do not.
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Claire Jackson
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:11 am

1. Removal of a skill system that did very little for the game in general and acted as a way to just lock out perks
2. Perks feel like they actually matter more too, this was a problem in 3 and NV where some perks just felt like they didn't really do much
3. Removal of a broken karma system that did very little for the game and force players to only see one side of a group
4. Actions are show to matter more then in 3 and NV
5. Sneaking in general improved to the point it's no longer a fast win solution, even when cloaked and using a silenced weapon a enemy can still find you if you're not careful
6. You're no longer forced to dump points into skills or get a perk if you hit the build type you want, taking a perk is now completely optional whereas before you were forced to put points into a skill you didn't want or to take a perk you didn't want because you couldn't progress past the level up menu
7. Instead of exposition dumps you actively see your effects on the world
8. Settlement building itself is an expansion to RPG mechanics as I can now build an entire town and give it an active role in the wasteland by setting up supply caravans and having merchants visit the settlement

There are probably way more examples but it's almost 1 am and I really don't care enough to look up what I'm forgetting. But I might as well ask why is Fallout 4 mechanically flawed when it comes to what an RPG is?
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Haley Cooper
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:03 am

I really like many of the improvements, especially settlements and crafting and automatron. The combat is also more refined.

The problem I have as a long time Fallout player starting with Fallout 1 is the lack of reactivity and meaningful consequences in Fallout 4.

Dialog options locking you out of quests, siding with the Master in Fallout 1, choices like joining the Slavers guild in Fallout 2 having a profound impact on the rest of the game, blowing up Megaton or helping the ghouls massacre Tenpenny tower in Fallout 3, to having this very intricate, delicate political maneuvering that you can actively influence in Fallout: New Vegas.

I don't see this level of interactivity in Fallout 4.
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:29 am

The settlement system is part of the RPG mechanics, though. There's huge roleplaying value - there's tons of new archetypes you can play with and the game encourages, like as a merchant lord or just fulfilling the goals of the Minutemen... Automatron even gives us the potential to play as a mad scientist and create communities of robots.

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James Smart
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:25 pm

1. Many prefer the skill system so that's not an objective improvement

2. Not really, 4 has many pointless perks as well.

3. I agree completely, the karma system was terrible

4. Hahahahahahahahahahaha! No they don't. Not even freaking close.

5. Sneaking is a gameplay mechanic, not an RPG mechanic.

6. That's not an RPG mechanic improvement, that's a quality of life improvement.

7. Not any more than you did in Fallout 3 or New Vegas.

8. No it's not. The settlement system has nothing to do with RPG mechanics.

So congratulations, you've have one valid, objective RPG improvement. Also, you seem confused as to what RPG mechanics actually are.

No it isn't. Those are two separate systems altogether.
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Miss K
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:30 am

You keep burying that head further into the sand, but the stuff I posted is EXTREMELY valid. Maybe actually do some research before making baseless claims because clearly you have no clue what you're talking about
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daniel royle
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:18 pm

Then perhaps the best solution is to just not engage with the other side in the first place, rather than try to defend your viewpoint and not giving reasons because you'll think they'll be ignored? Say your peice, then be done with it and move on, regardless of what they try to say.
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Assumptah George
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:28 pm

Coming from the person who thinks the settlement system is an RPG mechanic. The only one who needs to do research here is you, and judging by what you've said you need to do a LOT of it. You think what you posted is valid, which is fine and I agree that one of the things you posted is very valid. The karma system was terrible. The rest of what you posted however was not valid at all.

Like I said, neither of us are going to convince the other one because we both think we're right. This argument is pointless.

I only stop posting in a thread when people stop responding to my posts.

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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:42 pm

Okay wait, how are stealth and settlement building not RPG mechanics? If the game's RPG mechanics are built to say stealth is a valid way to play, then great stealth is really important for making sure that's actually true. There's nothing I hate more than dump stats in an RPG... stealth was alright in the last two games, but it was awful in the originals (for what it's worth it was pretty bad in Elder Scrolls before Oblivion too), and for the type of RPG Bethesda makes (open-world action RPGs that emphasize character building and player freedom) making sure every different playstyle is at least fun and rewarding is really important.

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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:30 pm

While that may be true. I actually might not disagree. It certainly offers another avenue for role-playing, but the real meat of RPGs is the influence your character can have on the story, the quests, the outcome of the world, and the impact on the people.

To me, Fallout 4 took a few steps back. It feels more like an open-world dungeon crawler with the combat being the prime means of progression. Many RPGs are or were built around this type of gameplay, but never Fallout, not even Fallout 3 or New Vegas.

Now I like Fallout 4, but I see potential. Imagine an even better New Vegas and Fallout 4 combined. I would call that a true successor to Fallout 1. I hope I don't sound elitist, but the originals are just hard to beat. Bethesda is doing a solid job however. Besides Obsidian, I can't think of anyone else fit for the challenge.
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Kira! :)))
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:46 pm

Typically when someone is talking about RPG elements they are talking about the dialogue system, branching paths in quests, outcomes of those things changing the world, ect. Stealth is a gameplay mechanic, not an RPG mechanic. Stealth and the settlement system can help with Role playing but they aren't roleplaying mechanics. As far as the stealth in Fallout 4 being good, it's definitely an improvement in many ways I agree.

Obviously opinions will differ though.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that I'm terrible at explaining the thoughts and reasons I have in my head unfortunately.

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Farrah Lee
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:58 pm

I don't think you can divorce the Settlement Management/Construction from Role-Playing.

My first play-through, the character I was playing was a loner and didn't do much settlement stuff past making them sufficient and a personal base. My next play through was all about building up settlement and supporting the Minutemen.

Then there in my experience with my Tabletop RPG group. I was running a game set in the Fallout Universe and they ended up being in charge of their town after a devastating Raider Attack. spent a lot of time looking for supplies to build up their towns perimeter wall, getting turrets and power generation, tasking citizen with generating resources, recruiting people from other towns .... basically everything you can do with Fallout 4 Settlements.

And this was all before Fallout 4 was announced.

So, you will have to do more convincing to be to think Settlements have nothing to do with RP.

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Elizabeth Falvey
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:55 pm

Using VATS is dumbing down RPG... I don't use it anymore. Not even when I have a companion since companions never die anyway. If anything, companions should die and resurrect once the fight is over like in NV.

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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:13 pm

I like VATS in Fallout 4. It always seemed very clumsy in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I do miss eye shots though.
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Jeff Tingler
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:45 pm

I never said they didn't have anything to do with RP, I said they aren't RP mechanics. There's a difference.

As far as convincing you, why would I try and do that? Trying to convince anyone in a thread like this is and always has been pointless. I'm also terrible at voicing my thoughts in a way that makes sense so there's also that.

I agree completely. I also forgot that eye shots were even a thing.

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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:40 pm

Yes, simply because there isn't much in the way of developing a certain type of character, like we don't really have the options to become a trader/caravaneer and have our own pack brahmin and just travel from settlements to settlements and trading and maybe even meeting other traveling wastelanders and trade with them too? You know, if EVERYthing wasnt hostile and there were more roaming friendlies. Or the option to be a slaver/raider complete with slave collars and all that stuff including a raider faction, stuff like this would make the game a lot more interesting to just have this entire spectrum of roleplaying open up and see the commonwealth from the bad guy's side you know? What if I don't give a single [censored] about synths? What if I want to get rid of the Gunners and Forged unless they get with my group like a evil version of the minute men where I go over and take over other raider groups or wipe them out if they refuse, Charisma could actually tie into this as well as the Intimidation perks, SPEAKING OF WHICH. I miss having perk specific dialogue options.


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CHangohh BOyy
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:47 pm

That's what I notice as well. You're pretty much force to play as the good guy.

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Czar Kahchi
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:54 pm

OK for role-playing games when we talk about mechanics we talk about mechanics THAT DIRECTLY IMPACT ROLE PLAYING, aka playing a role, playing a character that fits that role.

Fallout 4, yes this includes stealth and settlement building, has fine role-playing mechanics because you can accurately play a role can you play every role in the Universe? Hell no. There is plenty of development to play a certain role, regardless if you can't role-play stupid crap like being a slaver or a caravan there is still a large range of roles you can develop your character under.
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Dewayne Quattlebaum
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:35 pm

Killing a bunch of kids is pretty evil. There is only one ending that doesn’t have you directly or indirectly kill kids.
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Louise Andrew
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:14 am

Pretty much, yeah.

My "evil" character in Fallout 4 is a saint compared to my evil characters in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

You can? Really?

Alrighty then, go ahead and name a few. Give me the back stories you can have. Give me the character you can play that doesn't involve Railroad agent, Brotherhood soldier, Director of the Institute or "General" of the Minutemen.

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Dagan Wilkin
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:49 am

Let's not forget we can drive our character to squeeze people out of their caps for almost every quest, can raid caravans, can wipe out entire settlements in order to get control of them and three of the main factions are so morally ambiguous that people having negative views on what the faction does as "bad"

and this is why the factions are actually good, players build their own opinions on them instead of being told "this faction is good, this faction is neutral, this faction is evil bad guy"

Seriously, if you want to play a character that is "evil" here is what you do. 1. do action you consider bad 2. have your character do that action. CONGRATS you played, in your opinion, an evil character.
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Marine Arrègle
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Post » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:08 am

That game also had ranked perks, though some were specific to each character.

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Richard Dixon
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:01 pm

To be truly evil you need the options to torture, [censored], slavery, racism etc all in the game, never going to happen. The missing word is even cencored on here, so shows you its impossible

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Yvonne Gruening
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Post » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:03 pm

To be fair we actually get the option, numerous times, to discriminate against Synths which a debate on them being a race of sentient beings is a valid one.
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