Everyone always says that education is the most important thing when applying for a job and that without education you'll be stuck in low-paying jobs for the rest of your life. Is this really the truth? Can someone land a good job with no education?

Many of you will say "yes, it's possible, just look at all those college dropout billionaires like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison, but it's very unlikely that you'll be able to do what they did"

And you are right, it is very unlikely. I think, however, that their success had nothing to do with their education, or lack thereof. -> The same applies to successful people with extensive education; they didn't get where they are in life because they got good grades, they got there because they were determined to do so.

Let me tell you a bit about myself. I am 21 year old and I'm studying towards a degree in software engineering, I've either been in school or working for the past 4 years of my life, something both (working with school). I've always had pretty... different views on the structure of our society and I have also been pretty vocal about it which has gotten me into trouble on more than one occasion. Because of my views I would like you to take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, okay?

Last summer I applied for three jobs and I got one job offer and two interviews. Which isn't that impressive except that

I intentionally left out my education on my resume.

I did this because I wanted to test a theory I had. The theory was that attitude, first impression and confidence is the only thing that matters when applying for a job. Two of the companies I contacted had a form on their website people were supposed to use to apply for a job. I didn't use them, instead I designed my resume at home and used a professional printing service to print out a few copies. Then I went to the company I wanted to work for and asked to see the manager / person in charge, then I introduced my self, shook his / her hand and gave them the resume. I smiled and I tried to be as confident as I could which wasn't as easy as it sounds because I'm usually pretty awkward. The most important thing however was that I never said anything like "I really need a job" or "I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised if you just give me a chance". I acted like I was absolutely sure that I would get the job.

You should know that none of these jobs were high paying jobs and it wasn't for a permanent position. But a large percentage of people my age in Iceland are unemployed so it wasn't like there was a lack of applicants for each of those jobs.

Like I said before, I got two job offers and one interview. I was asked about my education in the one interview I went to and I just said that I finished college and that I was taking a break before I went to a uni. The interviewee never checked to see if that was true.

Today I talked to the headmaster in my school and I asker her if she got a lot of calls from employers asking about former students and she said that it happened occasionally but it was getting increasingly rare. Keep in mind that my school doesn't have a list online of graduates so the only way to check if someone actually went to school there is to call and ask.

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I have 5 friends who have spend their time and money to get a masters degree in some subject and only one of them actually has a job in that field. One of them, a guy who lived next door to me for 16 years, has a masters degree in structural engineering and he spent half a year searching for a job and eventually got a job in construction, and that was only because he lied and said that he had some previous experience in construction. And no he's not doing anything related to structural engineering, he's just a blue collar worker who comes home with back pains because he spent all day carrying large heavy objects and tools.

My dad has a masters degree in a subfield of economics (I don't know the English word) and he's never had a job in that field his entire life. He has always been good with computers and networks and today he's the lead network admin for every official institution or office in the entire county.

If these examples are not isolated cases then I think that's a pretty unsettling though. We've always been told that when applying for a job, this is what matters: (listed from left to right in order of importance)

Education > Experience (Previous jobs, etc) > Attitude > Skills related to the job

but if I'm correct then it's actually more like this:

Attitude > First Impression > Skills related to the job > Experience > Education

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Now I'm going to contradict what I've been saying and tell you that education is important. It really is, but the problem is that it's not important for the right reasons.

I don't have much to say about higher education. It is definitely important and you learn a lot of things there which can and will help you in whatever job you get. My problem is with lower education. College and anything below that.

What kids should learn during the first 5 years of elementary school is how to study. In other words they should be taught how to learn new things, how to take notes, how to gather information and eventually how to apply that knowledge. That is something that will help them in everything they do for the rest of their lives.

My dad's brother is someone who agrees with me and he's been talking about this for a long time. He taught his son (who is also my best friend) how to study and he taught him how to learn new things by understanding their core concept instead of learning them by committing them to memory by repeating some rule over and over. His son was an average student throughout elementary school but today he's excelling in everything he picks up. He gets superb grades, he's playing handball (non professionally) for one of the largest clubs in the country, he learned how to play guitar in 2 years (he's now learning steve vai songs by ear) and he still has time for his girlfriend and he has time to develop games with me (he's the lead programmer).

What I'm trying to say is that education in its current state is no more than an expensive daycare for teenagers and young advlts. The real education doesn't start until they're in university. This is a huge problem.

I've thought about dropping out for a while now and I doubt I'll actually do it, but it's definitely bothering me that I'm spending my days listening to people who are barely qualified for their jobs just so that I can get a piece of paper that says that I can conform with the unwritten rules of society.


What do you think? Is education completely useless? Is determination and discipline the only thing that matters when you're trying to achieve your goals?

Before I make a huge reply (which might have to wait for a few hours. I have classes soon). I just want to thank you, Exorince, for that excellent and thought-provoking OP. You really raise some great points.

Well, I think education is less important for general white collar jobs, obviously they're not gonna care about what school you went to, they're more interested in your ability to do the job they're offering.

The difference would be with closed professions where an education in that field is essential to even begin to do the job competently, but even then, they're not gonna care about your grades if your work in the field has been up to standard since then.


I would suggest that formal, graded education is only essential to those who work in graded education. Within your own experiences you can become educated within a variety of subjects and skills, none of which you have physical evidence for until you are able to demonstrate them in employment. Having a confident and professional attitude presents the image that you are sure of your understanding and skills, moreso than a graded exam does.

I want to remind people that this is not the place to discuss the politics related to education or educational institutes.

Take your time.

This is correct. But it is really related to business you are on. In my case. My job requires certain base knowledge even to be able to work with your co-workers.

I'm university student as well. And few of my classmates have quit just to be able to leap into work sooner. And I would do the same thing if good opportunity shows up.
But one thing I believe, is that you still require proper CV or other way to show that you are necessity for their company.

These two examples are both correct, it's all about how you apply for the job. Like applying online were the person has to go with what you provide and they do usually ask for your grades (UK anyway) and when you get to the interview stage they wish to see your certificates so a simply oh I don't have them wouldn't work.

and the qualifications you do have play a strong role in your chances of getting employed, no one is going to hire a numpty no matter how skilled they might be at the job nor are they going to give a job to someone who couldn't provide their certificates when promted during an interview.

Experience in a job is the big hitter though as well because the employer will then know that you know how to do the job and you won't be such high maintence.

They all punch as hard as each other in my book and if you want a job you're best having all of the above criteria.

I don't think that's quite true, I've known absolute morons that were loved by their bosses because they were able to do their specific job well without any fuss.

Great post Excorince. I have no formal education per say. I was an aspiring tennis player and I moved to Spain when I was 13, I finished primary school, did two years of secondary education and then I dropped out when I was 15. Tennis didn't work out, but now I'm 19, I am a qualified tennis coach; I speak good spanish and I have become extremely confident and personable through my previous job, which is as a tennis coach for a big English holiday company.

I've been offered two jobs on the spot, one as a salesman for a big investment firm in London and the second as a director of tennis for a private school. Neither person asked me for my qualifications. I was offered it on merit of my personality and ability.

I've battled with wanting to go to Uni for a while now, but the problem is nowadays, unless you are truly focused and have a goal, you can be stuck working a completely unrelated job to what your degree was.

I've been in school for fifteen years, yet that won't even get me anywhere in today's society. I would much prefer a system where you go to a place and say "hey, i'd like a job here" and they would say sure, teach you what you need to know and bam you're hired. I'm really reluctant to keep on going to school to find out what im studying for is completely useless because nobody wants me. When it came to course selection and difficulty, it was all chosen for me because everyone thought I shouldn't be allowed to make those decisions myself, so now this could interfere with my future as well.

Although one thing I hate more than anything is the "if you take math, and get an average of 70, you're worth more than the student who has an 80 average but didn't take math"

Without education I would not have had a place to chill in my High School years, so it's not completely useless.

And in Australia you can pretty much flunk in school and still get into Medicine and Law (provided you work your ass off at university).
I don't think it's useless, it just isn't as useful as the hullabaloo over it would lead you to beleive, and while, yes, maybe you can leave your education of a resume and still get a job, would you know how to behave wwithout going to school?

Education can give you a shortcut if you work with the system, but with perseverance you can get the same results without it.

Wow really? I've had an inkling to do something for Law, but with my marks I probably will get nowhere. My marks in biology are a 60, law is 70, my philosophy is a little above that. I believe that averages around 68, not even a 70. Who is going to want a guy like me into a school with a 68 average??? Mind you I didn't have a choice with biology, that was forced upon me and it's bogging me down >_> I want to go to Australia now lol

I'm not entirely sure how it works with Law, but for Medicine you can get into a Chemistry or Biology degree course and upgrade into Medicine when you've finished that (at leats it used to be like that). So you need to do a lot more work but it is possible.

I wonder if it's possible to redo high school? If I could restart that'd be pretty swell.

They might have had the grades to impressive but are general morons, though there have been cases were employers don't take on people because they're "over qualified" - my brother being one of them.
As long as you know basic maths and english most low end jobs will consider you

Sit the subjects you want at college?
I could do that here for a small fee but I don't know about where you're from

There's not way in a million years that you can become a teacher in Finland without education, but you can become a "guide/assistant" who specifically interacts and helps the individual students, not entirely classes, without proper education. How? Simply because they pay is so low that no-one who has education wants it, thus everyone who haven't got an education can apply and be accepted. Low-payment.

The problem with education (you specializing into something) is that you might not find job that matches your education, meaning it was a pointless 3-6 years of your life.

In Finland, every high-payed job needs education. All that matters is the paper, which sometimes doesn't even match what kind of knowledge you are supposed to have in the job. Thus, saying this:
Attitude > First Impression > Skills related to the job > Experience > Education
Is false when it comes to jobs that pay well.

However, if you are simply looking to "survive and have a little extra" then Attitude etc might come before education, in jobs that specifically need education.

There are always jobs that require very specific education, there is no denying that. My point is just that if you have the skills, and the determination to get the job you want then education isn't all that important.

By Skills I mean that you actually know what you're doing. If I were hiring someone for the position of a game programmer I'd much rather hire the guy or girl who has a passion for it and can show me that they've been working on projects related to game programming in the past (hobby projects or commercial) than the person who has the education, like software engineering or computer science, but doesn't have the experience. You know what I mean?

Good post exo, or rather, your theory was interesting.

As for my education and future line of work, it's a profession, so by law unless you complete a formal education I would not be given a warrant (CPA and hopefully a warrant for auditing in the future). So I would not be employed without my employers looking at my education resume.

I do believe confidence and showing your employer you WILL get the job goes a long way in landing the position you want. It shows that you are a person who can get what he wants.

So your not saying that Education is worthless but that the Education system is unneccesary?
To a certain point that is true, but with absolutely no Education system how would one pick up those skills at all?
And generally people with a passion for something (ie. computer science) is willing to put aside a few years of their life to learn those skills, and the education system provides the oppurtunity for people to learn these skills from someone who already knows, which saves everyone involved a lot of time. Although someone may be passionate, if they have no piece of paper to say they know how to do the job, how is the boss supposed to know they can rely on them?, You can't pratically test someones ability to perform in a position in a short interview. Just because someone can multiply doesn't mean they can do algebra for example.
Education is really just a formality so that you can prove that you know what you are doing, and the system is something employers can trust more than your word that you are qualified.

I like what you are saying here and I find this accurate of myself. In interview people mainly seem to judge on impression and confidence. Of course you would need a degree to do a degree level job. I know people who got masters and work in take away shops but that is the systems fault not ours. I would have much rather had school teaching people life lessons than random things that unless you wish to be going into a particular field you would not find useful. For example basic knowledge of maths is great but who really needs to know any more than counting up to 10? There are phone calculators these days.

Edit: Should say I have walked into about three jobs I was dangerously under qualified for before. They didn't last long but sheer showing face of being confident and pretending I know what I am about to say next seems to impress people. It's like people forget that life is pretty much ad lib

Education is not useless.

The dropout genius is still self-educated, no?

Those who don't have college degrees, yet are doing well are educated as well - perhaps not formally.

Having a degree when starting out shows that you have the ability to accomplish something, a basic working knowledge of your field, and hopefully some communication skills. These can all be self-taught or gained through experience.

I agree that a can-do attitude and examples of competencies can override education. In my field this is especially true. I know instances where trail staff who didn't know how to paddle a canoe or read a map were hired to lead wilderness trips because they showed good "soft skills" (people skills, situational awareness, problem solving) and could be taught the "hard skills" (campcraft, paddling, etc.).

Much depends on the employers' hiring processes...automated? Company policies? other?

Some questions to ponder:
1) What is education?
2) When is one considered educated?
3) How in the world did we as a species ever get started without formal education? (formal vs. informal/expereintial education)

Not sure I've said all that I want to, but it's enough for folks to get my gist.

Rumbly

I my be biased, but I have no job atm, and the things I learned in school havent been any use to me outside of it. My other friend is in a similar boat. He got a job after a few months, but I belive its in a factory, a job that dosent require much. Maybe im wrong, but I feel the stuff I learned, had no purpose, aside from getting a slip of paper, that helps me get to uni and learn something useful. But even then you may not get a job, and have student debt. I would have rather tried jobs when I was in school, or have a more specialised education. I doubt I will ever use some of the crap that was oh so important in school. Algebra, why the [censored] did I need it ?

Ah the joys of Algebra, the things we would do differently if we went back to school knowing what we know now. I would have bunked off more than I did before

Its all a conspiracy to sell more vellum.

I only took a few classes in a community school beyond my 12 years of public school. The classes I did take turned out to be useless, but I did get them for free.

I am 26 this year, and when I finished public school I still lacked many skills, and knew very little. In 4 years out of school I have learned more than 12 years of structured education. In the time I spent out of school so far, (8 years) I have learned more as a person and acquired more skills and experience.

Public mandated education today is worse (imo) than when I was in school, and I think there is more to gain in a private school.

Now with regards to higher learning, I think its almost a complete waste. I was reading some surveys and studies on the amount of people who go, but never finish. Those who do finish have trouble finding a job in the field they choose.
Those who do find a job have $40,000+ USD worth of debt to work out, not a great way to start out IMO. When you consider housing and basic needs as well was transport and so on.

Now, if that person manages to find a job quickly, and pays off the debt in 3-6 years they may be in much better shape then I ever will be. If they can find a high paying job, manage to pay debts off quickly and not be in constant debt (more money more problems, I have first hand experience in this) they likely can live to a higher standard than I can.

However, if a person was smart and just paid cash for everything after high school and took on as little debt as they can I think in the long run they will be better for it. My wife managed to pay for everything she has with cash, and we plan on paying off all debts this year and never going back in if we can manage it.

Debt can be a crushing thing. I know.

So in short, I do not think its worth it for everyone, maybe a few people can gain true benefit of it.