Cyrodiil was taken completely by surprise when the Dominion attacked. How good could their network be, especially now that they're pinned down by the Thalmor and gave the Blades over as appeasemant coin?

The Nords will at least be in control of their own territory, without Thalmor freely roaming it and being given access to all the jarls.

It has been pointed out by Celan that a change in leadership would be welcome. But how good of a leader would Ulfric be? He advocates an isolationist policy, is xenophobic, and even his supposed championing of the cause of the Nords is questionable (have you ever heard what's said between him and his second-in-command Galmar concerning a neutral Jarl?) Hardly the kind of guy I'd want to trust, let alone give rule of an entire country.

I think what Ulfric and the Stormcloaks fail to realize is that if the Dominion manages to topple the Empire, Skyrim will at some point become their next target. And when the Dominion beats them, being able to openly worship Talos will be the least of their worries.

Back then they didn't think the Thalmor were a threat. Neither did Ulfric, or the Redguards, or anyone else besides the Blades and a few Altmer.

In Skyrim, the Imperials managed to locate Ulfric, setting the stage for an ambush that the Thalmor could not successfully prevent (and almost thwarted their long-term plans). They also located a Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary as well as its password, found out about an impending Stormcloak attack on Whiterun, and were working in Markarth to try take Cidna Mine (even if it ended up proving impossible). This is in addition to every feat of intelligence gathering that the Stormcloaks managed to pull off. And that's just in Skyrim.

Ulfric was a young boy living in High Hrothgar.

The question is, why would the empire not consider the Thalmor a threat, when they were already making incursions into Valenwood? How about when Black Marsh and Elsweyr went over to them? What does it take to consider the Thalmor a threat, an engraved invitation to your own destruction?

Do you honestly think Skyrim by itself could win a war against the entire Dominion? Or that Ulfric would make a good leader, knowing his views concerning the other races and provinces?

Who says they're going to fight the Dominion by themselves? His conversation with Galmar indicates they're already seeking alliances with Hammerfell and High Rock. Other than those, not sure what provinces you mean. Morrowind is basically a wasteland, Black Marsh, Elsweyr and Valenwood already have gone over to the Dominion, and the situation with Cyrodiil will depend on whether the imperials give up their claim on Skyrim or press it.

The Thalmor invaded Valenwood long, long before the Great War. They manipulated Black Marsh even longer ago, and Elsweyr chose to side with the Thalmor. Very few saw them as a threat, it wasn't just the Imperial government that was underestimating them.

Post-crisis, it's fairly safe to assume that Imperial control of the southern provinces existed only on paper. And they had their own problems.

Even tho my background story is not making my assassin in any way happy about the Thalmor she supports empire. Skyrim would not stand a chance against Thalmor alone, and a weakened empire is exactly what the Thalmor would want to fight as it would mean easier to take control.

I believe in that same conversation it is revealed that High Rock stays on the side of the Empire, or at the very least will not help Ulfric in his rebellion. I find it curious that you have yet to speak on Ulfric's capabilities as a leader. And given the fact that he looks down on anyone who is not a Nord, I doubt very much any alliance that he might make between Skyrim and Hammerfell would last very long.

So they can't have had a very good spy network. Or rather, it appears to me they had plenty of warning (the Blades, warnings from refugees like the author of The Rising Threat, and according to The Infernal City, certain elements of the Penitus Oculatus which were trying to figure out if the Thalmor were responsible for Umbriel) and either chose to ignore it or couldn't muster a defense even of their own territory let alone their provinces. Which is sort of all the point- the empire is an empire only on paper, and very thin paper at that.


It's small wonder they would stay out of the Skyrim civil war. It's not their fight. Once Ulfric wins, then they'll have to deal with him. I'm sure it won't be easy- Hammerfell and High Rock both historically have had problems with the Nords, but I don't see what choice they all have.

As for Ulfric's leadership ability, he's more of a general than a politician, but I don't see that he's any worse than the poor leadership in Cyrodiil. And he seems to have a clearer view of the Dominion's threat than they do.

I'll say it again: the Empire weren't the only ones that were underestimating the Thalmor. I never heard of the Redguards or Nords or anyone besides a few Blades and Altmer saying that the Altmer were a threat. Nobody saw them as a the level of threat that they were later determined to be. If the Empire is somehow incompetent for not knowing, we might as well say that almost everyone else on the continent was equally incompetent, including those that would later become the Stormcloaks.

Of course that doesn't matter any more because now there's no doubt that the Thalmor are a threat. And we don't have any idea what is going on in Cyrodiil regarding the Thalmor.

Well you were arguing that the empire had the better spy network. I can agree with that, at least before the Great War- they just couldn't use the intelligence they were given. Wouldn't be the first government that made that mistake. To me it just shows that the empire basically is no more. It's not functioning as even a minimally competent government.

For my fellow UKers; the Stormcloaks are bascially Skyrim's BNP, and Ulfric is Nick Griffin. This is why I can never bring myself to support his hypocritical racist ass. I generally side with the Imperials, although they're not necessarily unproblematic either. Both have their flaws... but Ulfric's racism cinched the deal for me. It's funny; the prologue sets the Stormcloaks up as the romantic rebels, but as you gain tidbits of information you gradually realise that's not so. Nice storytelling, Bethesda. Romantic rebels are so overdone.

As I see it:

Both the Stormcloaks and Empire are right in their own way, but neither is an obvious better choice.

The Empire have the problem of temporary close relations with the Thalmor, but they are very liekly to defeat the Dominion since the Dominion had every advantage in the Great War, but still failed. Now the Empire is prepared for the inevitable coming conflict, at least as I have understood Rikke and Tullius.

Ulfric wants to defy the Thalmor sooner rather than later and re-establish the Talos worship which is good. However they are weakening themselves a lot by this Civil War and the resources would be better spent preparing for the Dominion/Empire conflict. I believe the fact that Ulfric is powerhungry has little to no effect on how he will do, but that is probably because I see him as the same character-type as Bhelen Auducan from DA:O.

The most important difference I detect is wheter one want to plan longterm or shortterm. The Empire seems a safer choice, mainly because Skyrim will not have any allies when the civil war is over and while other nations will aid them against the Thalmor is likely it is a wildcard I prefer not to play. The lack of an established intelligence network on the Stormcloaks part also put the favor towards the Empire for me.

This!

Not to mention Nords just piss me off in general, once get back to game my plan is to give crown to Tullius, even though begun on side of the Stormcloaks.


I can see that being accurate, especially your anology on both those rulers, he is more cruel and much more brutal, but even choosing Lord Harrowmont, the Dwarven line still goes through hell and turmoil.

What racism?


Not an option. The crown goes to Elisif. Good luck with that.

Only done the quest where I kill Ice Wraith, no more.

Well it's no secret that a lot of Stormcloak supporters feel that Skyrim should belong wholly to the Nords, and that non-Nords should not be allowed to remain in Skyrim. Since Imperials, Redguards, and Bretons all fall under the 'non-Nord' category but are still considered Men, that's racism. Judging by how he deals with the Dark Elves in his city, he's certainly xenophobic as well.

Ulfric reminds me very much of other leaders in history who have had racist/prejudiced tendencies. People tend not to like those kind of leaders.

Empire, duh. Because if Skyrim won its independance it certainly would not form an alliance with Hammerfell, which was in virtually the same scenario as Skyrim is now +20 years ago. It certainly wouldn't try to form an alliance with High Rock (which doesn't border Cyrodiil) either, no, Ulfric never tried asking High Rock for aid.

Who says you need a united Empire to defeat the Dominion? The Dominion couldn't defeat an independant Hammerfell, how could it possibly defeat, let alone reach, a (possibly) independant Skyim, which has a lot more soldiers than the Dominion does.

"Skyrim belongs to the Nords" is just a common Nordic battlecry. Everyone says it, even Empire supporters. "Skyrim is for the Nords" is the Stormcloak motto demanding the Nords have the right to rule Skyrim and decide its future, not the Elves or their Imperial thralls.

How does he deal with the Dark Elves? They get free housing and don't have to pay taxes. Yes, the non-racist, genuine Dunmer who do not do a thing to help in the war. No one told them they had to move to the city that was the heart of a pro-Nord rebellion. They could've just as easily gone to Winterhold, Riften or Whiterun.

Ha, most of the Elves in Windhelm are more successful than the Nord commonfolk. Infact, I think there's only about 2 or 3 that actually even complain. And most of the rest bash on the complainers.

Exactly. Ulfric couldn't build a multiracial coalition to save his life.

He'd be at war with High Rock over the Western Reach within days, and pursuing irredentist claims to Bruma within weeks.

?

I didn't know High Rock backed the Forsworn. Not even the natives back the Forsworn. The Forsworn are radicals.

That's news to me.

If High Rock is so stupid as to push territorial claims when the Dominion is breathing down their necks, they deserve to lose everything they have.

Skyrim and High Rock have fought over their borders in the Reach before. But see above. Ulfric isn't stupid, and I don't think High Rock can be that stupid, either.