Just my way of saying, "Nobody really cares or wants this." While it's not 100% true, I still find it fun to say as it's a way to get a point across whilst having a laugh.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above post. Though sadly, I even agree with the part about how we'll likely never see this type of system implemented.

And to all of you screaming "NO!" and "TES is an RPG, not an ARPG!" and the like, get the [censored] over yourself. In case you hadn't noticed, Oblivion's combat had practically zero RPG elements in it, purely action. That's likely the way Skyrim will be, too. So stop whining and come to terms with the fact that TES, in regards to combat, is now based on action. That said, it might as well be based on good action, if it must be so based in the first place.

Hello, some of you may remember me from the old Oblivion/morrowind forums. I posted some similar topics and idea's on there before the games came out.


With the TES series we have seen a shift going from more traditional "rpg-style" combat to a more action-oriented system. However it's been a bit of a rough road. With Morrowind the combat felt disconnected. you'd be visually right up on someone whacking at their head but getting a "miss." This took the player a step back, as it took you out of a game because you, the player, were in control of the game but the game was still trying to determine something that you visually/physical controlled also.

With Oblivion this was taken a step further, even more action oriented with no "to miss" rolls, you hit something you hit it this time. However the combat still wasn't comparable to the great action games out there. It came off feeling "wishy washy." There was no real connection between you and the enemy you were fighting, you would run up to them, swing your sword hap-hazardly hacking away at someone., there was no real "dance" to the combat. Nothing like you'd picture if you read about a real sword fight or watched it on teh big screen.

The main things that are holding the combat back is the fact that the game uses first person. This is a big limiter to the combat because of the fact that as a developer, you don't want to constantly "disorient" the player,

this leads to the movees and combat being kept down, there's no fancy acrobatic moves, no real lv changes in fights or anything. It just doesn't feel that "personal/impactful." Not to mention with first person views in games it drastically cuts off your peripheral vision, So things you might see/know if real life you simply don't because of the FOV/limitations of your monitor.

The second main reason the combat wasn't as good as it could be was the combat system itself. Like a good famous third person action game, Jedi Knight (which I'm sure many of you are familiar with) it had one fatal flaw in its system, movement. In both Obliviion and Jedi Knight the movement and direction of your combat moves were based on a direction. This ends up creating both visually and physically combat that looks rather.....awkward. You have two peple fighting who simply run around without meaning, whacking away at one another. It looks basically like two kids fighting with nerf swords, not like either a real sword fight or even a more "Hollywood" choreographed fight.

The biggest change to combat to make, to get it away from feeling this way is simple, do not base the direction/combat moves on a physical direction. Instead of using direction/movement to determine what moves the player does all you need is to make one fundamental change. Best of all? It can be done with NO key changes, that's right, no additional keys/button to use apart from the already implemented controls.

There was one game that did this, and to this day it has imo the best Melee combat system to date, Severance (blade of darkness). In Severance the combat was fun and enjoyable. It placed a GREAT importance on being defensive (dodging, blocking, etc) and know when to attack and not.

The controls worked much like Jedi Knight except for one major difference, instead of simply hitting w/s/a/d and THEN using your mouse it reversed it. It was a simple yet wholeheartedly world of difference. The left mouse button become your "action" button. You simply pressed it (and held it down) and then used w/s/a/d to pulle doff moves.

Then you simply released the mouse button to use w/s/a/d to move around as usual. It was quick, easy to learn, but offered a great depth that JEdi Knight and similar games couldn't match. This made combat both physically play out and visually look "right." Not only did it make combat more cohesive and enjoyable but it made things feel more connected. Gone were they awkward spactic moving around and frantically whacking away look of combat and now you had combat that looked like you would expect it to look in real life. . You moved when YOU wanted to, not to pull of "x/y/z" move.

The next major improvement to combat was the Lock On system, now do not jump to conclusionis here. When I say "lock on" most people here probably imagine a cheap "aim-assist/win" button. This was not true of severance at all. The lock on system was oe of the best things because with the lock on system it made the importance of the defense even more so and also made it a pillar of combat, rather then an afterthought. It didn't feel cheap and it wasn't a "free hit" either.

With the l ock on system when you locked on to your chosen foe (which you could easily switch/get out of) it merely kept you oriented toward them. This opened up a major change in movement, the circle strafing. Now for any of you who have watched fights in real life, boxing, MMA, etc you know that circling around your opponent is a very important part of combat. This was the case back in the middle ages as well. Without a lock on system you do NOT have a circle strafe, as movement still exists on a 2d-plane for mouse/keyboards. You would have to move /turn your mouse constantly to "mimic" a circle strafe in most games without a lock on system. However once you lock on to someone in Severance, your a/d key becomes a circle strafe. What this does is allow you to move around your enemy, to get a good angle for a hit, etc. You press it quickly twice for a dodge as well to move out of the way of blows.

See with the Lock on systesm another key thing that they did was to have animations/hits play out once you start them in that direction. This means that if you are facing me, then go to attack (while locked on), if I am quick enough to judge right, I can dodge your attack because once you start your combat move, it plays out in that direction you were facing, this allowed you to dodge attacks quickly if you read your opponents moves. So lock on wasn't cheap, didn't magically help you "hit" someone, it merely connected the combat and made it both play and feel more realistic.

snip

I think you mean, "It is a good way to troll, and I get a laugh out of flamebaiting."?

Actually it did, RP stands for RolePlay [...]

With the TES series we have seen a shift going from more traditional "rpg-style" combat to a more action-oriented system.

I don't really agree with this statement. The only big difference in combat from Morrowind to Oblivion was a more "You get what you see" style. The combat felt pretty much the same (a little heavier feeling in Oblivion), but if I hit someone I would get credit for it. I wouldn't call that a shift in the direction of action-oriented any more then Morrowind.

With Oblivion this was taken a step further, even more action oriented with no "to miss" rolls, you hit something you hit it this time. However the combat still wasn't comparable to the great action games out there. It came off feeling "wishy washy." There was no real connection between you and the enemy you were fighting, you would run up to them, swing your sword hap-hazardly hacking away at someone., there was no real "dance" to the combat. Nothing like you'd picture if you read about a real sword fight or watched it on teh big screen.

And thats a good thing. I shouldn't be locked or glued to someone I am fighting... and part of the challenge of Oblivions combat is the fact you actually have to hit someone and pay attention, as opposed to spamming buttons until you win while the game does all the work.


The main things that are holding the combat back is the fact that the game uses first person. This is a big limiter to the combat because of the fact that as a developer, you don't want to constantly "disorient" the player, this leads to the movees and combat being kept down, there's no fancy acrobatic moves, no real lv changes in fights or anything. It just doesn't feel that "personal/impactful." Not to mention with first person views in games it drastically cuts off your peripheral vision, So things you might see/know if real life you simply don't because of the FOV/limitations of your monitor.

First things first... The Elder Scrolls first person view is one of the biggest draws the game has.

Second, if you are wearing a suit of armor, you are NOT going to be doing any fancy acrobatics. Hell, one thing I have always loved about TES games is the fact that the combat isn't over dramatic and filled with outrageous combat moves that all but a few people in the world couldn't possibly pull off. It has a far more realistic feel to it then pretty much every other action adventure/rpg game out there.

Also, you can still look around you know... just like you would have to in real life to know whats going on around you (FOV is not unlimited in real life). Being in third person lets you see far more then you could from a real life view.

There was one game that did this, and to this day it has imo the best Melee combat system to date, Severance (blade of darkness). In Severance the combat was fun and enjoyable. It placed a GREAT importance on being defensive (dodging, blocking, etc) and know when to attack and not.

Never played Severance, but from watching videos of it really quick it has the same combat as Zelda and Fable. Both games have good combat for the games they are but lock-on combat, forced 3rd person, and move based gameplay would make The Elder Scrolls V a completely different game. Again, you want to take out everything that makes TES games unique and turn it into a run of the mill action adventure game.

The next major improvement to combat was the Lock On system, now do not jump to conclusions here. When I say "lock on" most people here probably imagine a cheap "aim-assist/win" button. This was not true of severance at all. The lock on system was one of the best things because with the lock on system it made the importance of the defense even more so and also made it a pillar of combat, rather then an afterthought. It didn't feel cheap and it wasn't a "free hit" either.

Again never played Severance but its combat system does not seem very unique... and in every other game with a similar combat system (such as Fable) its an automatic win system for anyone who isn't absolutely horrible at the game.

With the lock on system when you locked on to your chosen foe (which you could easily switch/get out of) it merely kept you oriented toward them. This opened up a major change in movement, the circle strafing. Now for any of you who have watched fights in real life, boxing, MMA, etc you know that circling around your opponent is a very important part of combat. This was the case back in the middle ages as well. Without a lock on system you do NOT have a circle strafe, as movement still exists on a 2d-plane for mouse/keyboards. You would have to move /turn your mouse constantly to "mimic" a circle strafe in most games without a lock on system. However once you lock on to someone in Severance, your a/d key becomes a circle strafe. What this does is allow you to move around your enemy, to get a good angle for a hit, etc. You press it quickly twice for a dodge as well to move out of the way of blows.

When you fight in Oblivion, you have to face your opponent as well.... its just that YOU have to do it, and not the game doing it for you. I fail to see the need to automate this, other then to water the game down for people who lack coordination.

A few choice responses in red.

Bottom Line: First of all, the combat in Oblivion was fine and does not need drastic changes. The game was very popular, and was a huge hit... so Bethesda is simply not going to make drastic changes to a winning formula.

Yes, there probably will be some changes to the combat... but they likely will keep the basics that have made TES so popular. Bethesda is however NOT going to make changes that would basically turn the game into a watered down, button masher action adventure game. I understand you might not like the combat in TES games, but then you probably shouldn't play TES games. If you want action adventure, go play action adventure... don't try to turn a one of a kind game into a run of the mill game in an already crowded market.