I know the TES isn't out yet, but I'm wondering how much modding of the leveling system (Perks primarily, but also possibly hp/stam/mana picking).

I enjoy the game a lot so far - the mechanics are just as good (but different than) Oblivion, and the world is just as amazing as Morrowind (so far). One of my complaints is the perks system.

One of the strengths of TES is that you get better at things by doing them. Its awesome, and adds a huge amount of immersion. However, in Skyrim, if you want to be better at something, you have to put 'perks' into it. Understandable, but it leads to some odd features - you could have a, say, 60 in a skill that you are crappy with because you didn't pick the perks. Or you could need to level, say, Heavy Armor to get another perk point so you can get Silent Casting from Illusion. Perks are functional as is, but I just think it could be so much better.

That said, my question is how much can we change perks/the perk system? Obviously nobody has an answer to that yet, but I thought I'd put it out there.

This leads to the natural question of, what would we change it to?

The idea I've had that I like the most is to change all the perks that make sense to be automatically in effect, but have their effectiveness a function of skill level. For example, the +damage effect on weapons (five perks for +20% per, requiring the appropriate skill level) to make it so the tree automatically bestows +s% damage where s is the skill level.

Other perks would be more complicated. For instance, the spell-cost-reduction functions probably shouldn't be linear. I'm thinking inflection points at +- 10 skill points from where you normally get it, with it approaching 50% there, 0% reduction at 0, and asymtotal to 40% - even past 100. Just a thought.

Obviously, this might make things more powerful, but the numbers could be tweaked. I think it would make things a lot more fun, and remove the perk choices which seem to break my immersion. TES games are almost never balanced anyways, which is an unfortunate effect of giving players a sandbox.

So do you guys think this will be possible? Regardless of whether its possible, do you think such a scheme would be an improvement?

I think you made a good point about the whole leveling one skill to gain a perk in another thing. It really is somewhat odd. I haven't the slightest idea how to address that though, save making it so that you gain perks not by leveling, but at skill level increments. IE, at 20, 40, 60, 80, &100 and making it so that you MUST select a perk from that tree as opposed to another. This would almost have to be implemented with something close to your idea of making the critical ones automatic but just have 6+ perks that had extra effects that were cool/helpful but not necessarily crippling to not have.

An idea to couple onto this would be to make gear more relevant to health/magicka/stamina, and remove actual leveling altogether, and simply give perks when you reach 20/40/60/80/100(5 perks per tree) of a skill. It would call for a complete overhaul of the perk system, but I think it'd make a bit more sense(the perk system NEEDS a good overhaul. Right now some trees are just outright terrible{destruction}, and some are just FAR too good{conjuration/archery}).

Just an idea.

The answer is already there, and that is the skill requirement before you can apply the perk.

Yeah, the fact that they went ahead and removed attributes sure makes those smooth leveling things more complicated to implement. While I'm not sure if it would be practical to change your health / magicka / stamina based off whether you were wearing glass, iron, or daedric (etc); I suppose it could be possible to base those stats off of your skills like some of the old Oblivion mods did. But I agree with you.. The whole level up and you gain +10 HP/MP/Stamina thing is kind of silly. This also goes for always being able to carry 300 lbs of goods, but a PICKPOCKET being able to carry 400 LBS +! When exactly did having extra pockets have anything to do with being able to carry heavier loads. Also, how does getting stronger over time cause pockets to magically appear?

The problem is that that does not bar you from using a perk earned from leveling up smithing to your conjuration tree.

Or, make each skill worth a portion of each heatlth/magicka/stam. For instance, Resto would probably be (.3/.6/.1) and Heavy Armor would be something like (.6/0/.4). If each added up to a total of 1, it would be just as strong as leveling, but again, would feel more "right" than picking every 10 skills. It would also fit what you use. I wonder if you could do that. If you could, I wonder if you could go a step further and adjust starting stats in a similar fashion. So many questions.

As for perks, I wonder if you could have each tree get tree-specific perk points at different skill levels. That way the number of perks in each tree could vary based on how many options there are in that tree. If some perks were to become passives instead, this could be useful. Also, I'd avoid awarding perk points at 20 under this scheme, as players start with some skills higher than that.

I'd rather more tactile perks, like muffled sound movement when running or sprinting that the game offers already and less of the ones like the ass backwards perks of pickpocketing an equipped sword, atleast make it a hand to hand move or even get some paralyzing palm perks in, but less percentages and more in game moves, and NOT perks that determine a Good theif/Poor theif, but whether or not my guy is an Assassin or a street urchin.

The way I wish it worked is, if I reach level 70 in lockpicking, I should get the level 70 lockpicking perk, not a skillpoint that I can spend in Heavy Armor even though I earned the point by lockpicking....

The perk system in Skyrim works exactly like it does in Fallout 3, with exception there's a skill tree. The BEST way to fix this is to add these damage perks to other perks (editing perks will be the easiest thing you can do in Skyrim). For instance, taking Well Fit will give you 20% more armor in addition to it's current effect, all the way up to the level 75-80 perk.

I'd be happy with the skill trees being unlocked, but, you'd you still need a 70 in a skill to pick the level 70 skill, but you don't have to unlock it by picking the skill before it,
because some of the prerequisite skills are just useless and a waste of a skill point.

Then you have the perk limit to worry about. It would lead people to playing a certain way to grow certain skills. With the current system I do what I feel I need to. I used to avoid sneaking to keep it from increasing. Now, I don't have to. Your I idea would cause that to happen again; I think.

I think that's a matter of taste. That kind of eliminates the point of having a tree or perks at all. It would be back to Oblivion's system of just giving you certain things at 25 50 75 and 100. I think they were trying to make you make decisions on what route to develop your character even within the different skills in order to make your character more unique from others'. Whether or not this was executed well is up to debate, though.

It works sort of "ok", but I'm finding it extremely limiting as far as multi-classing goes, the way it's currently working, there are just some basic skills it seems like you HAVE to take,
no matter what class you play, and to me, there's so little skill points that you can only choose to become Awesome in one skill, and be bad in another skill,
like Mage/Thief or Battle Mage, I quit my level 26 character because I couldn't respec, and while the world was leveling around me, and I had a lot of skills,
my Damage was staying the same, (due to oversight) so pretty much everything was killing me with ease, and most battles could've had the Benny Hill music playing, because it
was always me running away in circles from a mob that I wasn't doing very much damage to, with Bow or Magic, and standing face-to-face could get me one-shot if the mob scored a critical on me,
and that was with 250 health.

So yea, that character is trashed now, I started over, because there are some perks that are required to take to unlock a GOOD perk, so I wasted a few points on useless perks in order to unlock good ones.

Yeah, that is a huge problem with the current system. Like I posted earlier, I think the critical perks should be automatic but the ones that offer additional helpful effects should be the ones that you have to spend points on. Like.. For Example... Enhancing raw damage output = Critical. Attacks also damage fatigue now = Optional. You'd have to choose between that and say having a very small chance to stun, etc.

I have been thinking about the current perk tree and leveling in general. I feel it needs a major overhaul.

I was thinking that every skill tree in the game needs to have every perk associated with it reconsidered. And i don't think we should limit ourselves to what is already there. why cant we have for example: Light Armor 'Agile Defender 0/5' become 0/10! What ever a perk currently gives should come under heavy consideration as to what it should grant instead. Even rename the perk to something completely different.

As it stands, some perk trees are quite useless and others are very useful. Some perks affect every other perk in the tree while other perks are completely solo and wont do anything else (such as 'Steel Smithing' - By the time you get to the first town you are likely already wearing steel or wielding a steel sword, the only use this perk has is to improve what you have, and by that time you probably have something better anyway! < so the only purpose this perk even exists for is so you can get to a higher tier perk in the smithing tree... its a pointless stepping stone.) I am not opposed to 'stepping stone' perks, as long as they still perform some function...

there needs to be more perks that grant real bonuses, such as the perks that allow you to increase it multiple times > 0/5, 0/3 etc...

I propose the entire perk list be heavily modified. Maybe even grant the player 2-3 perk increases per level-up but have perks grant smaller bonuses. (this is in addition to rewriting the entire perk list!).

A mod team needs to be put together that will be dedicated to rewriting the perk tree. There are already numerous threads about changing aspects of different skill trees when i feel it should all come under the one single mod. A Perk Mod. This is by no means a small task, as there are 18 separate skill trees and currently about 178 individual perks (not including those you can double up on like Agile Defender). I am all for being a part of a team that wishes to do this. And i understand people have different views as to what should or should not be accomplished, but that is the idea of working together to come up with a completed mod that appeals to everyone, besides, you can always release different versions or toggle effects on/off...

I personally like the idea of choosing your own perks on level-up. It helps the player to define their characters more. I am opposed to the player being 'given' perks just because a skill is at a certain level. I don't think it should be possible for a character to obtain even half of the perks available as it leaves room for replay-ability and completely different character classes. The leveling system as a whole is not all bad, but id like to see it improved. A Mod team that focuses on the perk tree should also delve into the players leveling system in my eyes. They go hand in hand. The discussion regarding Primary and Secondary skills. As it stands ALL the skills act as Primary skills and leveling any of them will affect your player level. But if you are playing strictly a warrior melee character then reading a book and gaining a skill level in conjuration should NOT affect your level! My character should be able to 'dabble' in alchemy and smithing and not affect my player level. And i feel the perk tree needs to be rewritten to encompass all this!