calling it GW2 hype is dumb. I played the beta. and this is exactly how it works. and you know what? it is good. you can frown upon it as much as you want. as it stands GW2 is better at anything TESO promises. And this is actually a realy great thing it has. Its better than phasing. Why? because you can 1. actually fail and see an imapct thats there cause of your failure and 2. its not just YOU who sees your progress. Everyone sees it, and they see a World that actually has some changing elements in it that are driven by players.

saying its just the hype of GW2 is just wrong. You should play it yourself before you think its just one more MMO that promises alot and doesnt deliver. So far they did everything exactly like the said it would work. No i dont have any hype for this game, Hype hardly works when you alreadey played the Game. I played 2 Beta Weekends and 1 Stress Test so far. So yess i guess i can actually talk about these things.

This is gonna be so fun, so TESO needs to be changed like GW2. Can you guys relax and play it at least couple month minimum. PVP is going to be the main focus of TESO, of course theres raiding too etc. btw Ive heard Everquest Next SOE took "virtual world" approach with it, they aim for very realistic character graphics and real living world.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG6GK6Oo58c

They are really gonna do it. They are testing it with EQ2. No doubt you see it in Everquest Next.

I think Everquest Next is going to be fantasy All Point Bulletin, i think thats what you guys are looking for.

that is actually quite awesome.

I must say its interesting. But who of us want to spend months in virtual world? I know PVP MMOs where I spend my time, I usually get bored with PVE so fast, I can PVP ALOT longer.

do we actually know anything about EQ next but that its like a reimagening and has this weird tec in?

actually id like that in TESO, i was never realy an RP guy. But in TES this thing might actually be worth a shot. Immerison is, afterall the most important thing.

I see you there, Ned Stark.

This sounds familiar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online

Artificial Life Engine

Starr Long, the game's associate producer, explained in 1996:[indent]
Nearly everything in the world, from grass to goblins, has a purpose, and not just as cannon fodder either. The 'virtual ecology' affects nearly every aspect of the game world, from the very small to the very large. If the rabbit population suddenly drops (because some gung-ho adventurer was trying out his new mace) then wolves may have to find different food sources (e.g., deer). When the deer population drops as a result, the local dragon, unable to find the food he’s accustomed to, may head into a local village and attack. Since all of this happens automatically, it generates numerous adventure possibilities.[/indent]
However, this feature never made it beyond the game's beta stage. As Richard Garriott explained:[indent]
We thought it was fantastic. We'd spent an enormous amount of time and effort on it. But what happened was all the players went in and just killed everything; so fast that the game couldn't spawn them fast enough to make the simulation even begin. And so, this thing that we'd spent all this time on, literally no-one ever noticed – ever – and we eventually just ripped it out of the game, you know, with some sadness.^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online#cite_note-10}[/indent]

I remember reading they dont want to reinvent the wheel. I think its really virtual/living world what they're trying to do, heavy emphasize on social/guild features. Voice-chat is done before with APB, SOE just takes it to the next level. Sure its nice. Also factionless and PVE game.

I like where you're going with this. While I'm not sure your first idea about the NPCs starving (ie, dying) due to a lack of players getting their boar meat to them is really feasible in an MMO environment, some sort of effect could happen as a result. Maybe the NPCs become sickly looking, or offer players more EXP or money based on their extreme need. Maybe it would go so far as to add another quest involving getting them medical supplies.

I would also love the idea of seasons in an MMO. Not just an area that is sometimes snowy -- sometimes not. But actual, real seasonal weather cycles based on real time. New or varied content could be offered at different times of the "year" (a whole other consideration though -- in game time) with new monsters and rewards popping up. Obviously, this time cycle could not mimic Earth's seasonal rotation. Who wants to wait 8 months just to do some content that you missed? But it could go on a weekly cycle that would imitate the RL yearly seasonal cycle.
Week 1- Winter
Week 2- Spring
Week 3- Summer
Week 4- Autumn

It should have been left in there in anticipation of the future, when the mad dash at the new game would settle down as people would find their niche. Then suddenly people would start noticing. When it was ripped it out with some sadness, weren't there people in the community who mourned it? it cannot be said that Nobody ever noticed it. People always notice. they may be in the minority, but it matters to them. They should have mattered enough that it was left in for those who do appreciate that level of detail.

But I am not calling for such minute degrees of simulation. I'm speaking about stuff that makes sense on a societal level. If you put NPCs farmers into the game, then let the farms be subject to random problems players can help deal with, whether it is bandits taking crops or setting fires to fields, to some strange blight on the crops that requires a touch of restoration magic to heal so it is edible. Things that if they go unchecked could reduce daily food production for the nearby town. And if there is no blight, no bandits and no fires, maybe the farmer just needs you to carry a load of grain to the town. And maybe the town will pay a little coin for services rendered.

Speaking as a consultant on matters of online game development, though my 17+ years of industry and consumer observation insight has not been asked for, I believe that MMOs have gotten too far away from the worlds they used to be and have become too steeped in instant gratification and spoon-feeding. Games like Guild Wars 2 and TESO are taking strides in what I feel is the right direction. But even within the scope of what is already being done, I feel that more can be done.

It isn't just about a living world. It's about making everything a player can do meaningful in some way. So the world feels alive to him. Farms aren't just fields with crops in them decorating a landscape. Mines you can actually go in and work so nearby blacksmiths can have raw materials to shape their wears. Where picking herbs and flowers and berries growing along the road and selling them to apothacaries will allow them to keep their potions and ointments in stock. Where if you want to work in the kitchen of some tavern making food NEEDED by adventurers for lasting boosts of strength or whatever, the tavern owner will pay you for your services.

Do away with auction houses and make it so people can make money by driving a living economy.

As cool as a living world that uses stuff like you described might be, it is the stuff that players can do that has meaning that matters.

I remember the winery in Yew. You could find graqes all over the place, empty bottles all over the place, but we never could MAKE wine there. Seems it would have been easy to do. Have five clusters of graqes? Have a bottle? Use the widepress and if a winemaking skill was high enough, you get a bottle of wine.

Why make wine?

Imagine that the local lord or governor or whatever is hosting a gathering of foreign nobles. There's feasting and drinking. The event will occur on a certain date and a call has been put out to all who are able to harvest crops, nake wine, prepare flour for baking, all sorts of things that might be needed to keep the noble guests entertained. Imagine the master of kitchens recruiting extra cooks to keep the food coming during the event. Players who have gained reputation for great deeds might be invited to the event. A lot is riding on the outcome. If all goes well, the food good, the wine good, the local lord may be able to broker a trade agreement or mend some bad political fences and stave off a potential conflict. If things go badly, political relations in the region could go sour.

Who would have thought that harvesting crops, cooking food and making wine could play into matters of politics? Why did kings and other nobles often have feasts and invite other nobles from all around? It wasn't just so they could have a good time. It was part of political maneuvering. And if done as I suggest, you get a lot of players involved in potentially making bigger things happen.

That to me is having a living world.

There are a LOT of MMO players, and you will know this from past MMOs that were more accomodating to them, who don't really care about fighting. If they can craft things that others can use, or simply contribute to the community in some way, they will get as much out of it as the most hardcoe PvPer or raider. Why not grant them an avenue to do that?

By the way, if you guys want an amazing example of what a living MMO world looks like, look at this video from FFXI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iesY1XssACM

The birds, bugs, fish, whales and even swooping dragon are not mobs. They're part of the living scenery. Some parts do have mobs (they're pretty obvious, you should be able to tell) These images are not cutscenes, but are scenes you get just by walking through an area, and paying attention to detail.

This is what a living world should be, and is the sort of artwork and attention to detail that makes an MMO really special.
FFXI was/is a great game. Damn, now I want to go and renew my sub lol.

Aesthetically speaking, that is awesome. Details like that would be wonderful. However it is more important that the world feel alive through what the players can do by interacting with each other and interacting with NPCs and even with the world. Aesthetics are important. But open-ended mechanics are as well

This already happens in some MMO but their is one MMO that will really bring this all alive.

Look..

Farming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1p1os9-L7A

Sheep Farming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKPOskJOoT0

Underwater Farm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mmGyipcDlY

Mining
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHArCj4dEOY

Gliding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRu4LB5JREM

Crafting a Forest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7WUuzsEqaM

Okay seriously amazing and creepy at the same time.....I like it, although I have to say the dude in the video needs to lose the used car salesman slicked back hair!

Onto the OPs thread...great thread!

This is definitely the next level of gaming. Granted it would be tough to impliment but then again boundaries need to be pushed. I would love a living, breathing world where things can change and the player base does have a hand in what is happening. If one could impliment things like this it would add a whole new dimension to the crafting/gathering side of the game not to mention the economy of the game as well. You could truly have a class that is non combat and allow for a merchant type class that has it own way of leveling (via how the player supplies the needs of locale towns, what he is sells at the markets, what grade of metals/gems etc he supplies to crafting guilds, there is a long list of posibilities).

Having towns that would break down and dissappear if starvation set in is a great idea. The flip side of that is to have a quest come up where players are giving the option to help re-settle the area and start a new town. Clear out monsters...help locales setup farms, inns, smithy etc. Yes I know this is very much on the uber technical side of things and that the technology to impliment this "doesn't exist" yet, but if you don't have things to shoot for you will keep re-inventing the wheel instead of truly revolutionizing it.

I don't know of a single MMO yet that has implimented a really good non combat class. Yes I know the majority of gamers are in it for the combat, but I for one would love a chance to have an impact other then defeating raid boss 005 or completing dungeon 008. To be able to positively or negatively affect economies through resource control or trade control would make for a much more interactive world (yes, i can hear the people cry out with frustration due to lack of "mats"). But it would be cool the player base could affect the quality of weapons/armors/jewelry available to the it's faction depending on how its trade industries were doing.

Okay, i'll stop now....great thread!