The Greybeards & The Way of The Voice:

This paragraph is to give a small explanation as to who 'The Greybeards' are and what 'The Way of The Voice' forum page is for. The Greybeards are four entities working as one for the betterment of TES. We wish to see TES grow even greater and have created this forum specifically for the purpose of helping that happen. That being said, we come to 'The Way of The Voice'. This is the title of the actual forum page and is titled such to signify its meaning, which is to meditate on things that might make Skyrim (the current TES) better, things that could be fixed, and things that quite bug you. Below the forum can be broken down into several sections each with their own title. We will update these sections as much as possible with things like new ideas, new glitches to be fixed, and etc. Please note that we only have the 360 Edition of Skyrim. Due to tight funds at its release, we were unable to upgrade our computers appropriately for playing of the game. Also note that 'The Way of The Voice' and its many meditations are not limited to just 'The Greybeards'. We are open to input, comments, and even suggestions for the forum. In fact, we would appreciate getting them as we are likely to miss several glitches that appear over PS3 and Computer versions. We also would like feedback because this will lead to us getting noticed and as our ultimate goal is to get the things on this forum noticed by all (developers especially), every comment helps.

Glitches (Patch 1.6) :

• 'Iron Bar' in arm when forging (this one particularly upsets me as I have had it since the first patch).
  
• Active NPC's becoming 'invisible' after capturing fortresses during the Imperials v. Stormcloak story arc. (only happens after killing tons of them)
  
• Patch of skin behind neck and slightly shrunken head when wearing Ebony Helmet with Ebony Chest Piece.
  
• Halldir's Staff duplication, if staff is picked up before searching body, can get a second staff upon searching of body.
  
• Ebony Mail will sometimes permanently leave death aura. This will happen with normal Ebony Armor after wearing the Ebony Mail for sometime.
  
• Hadvar will sometime permanently follow you within the walls of Whiterun shortly after completing the Imperial v. Stormcloak quest line (when in favor of the Imperials).
  
• Music glitches for several things. Battle music does not start if enemies are slain too quickly or if you are simply a much higher level than them. In Windhelm, when going to kill Ulfric, the battle music will not stop playing after you have slayed him and goes on until you 'wait'. When dragons attack, music will sometimes not initiate, this is especially true if the Dragon attacks starting with a strafe. Glitch still exist that if you attack Alduin before he finishes speaking at the 'Throat of the World', battle music does not initiate.
  
• Shop keepers almost never appear in store at 8:00am. This happens most often when trying to 'wait' for the right time (usually end up having to wait till almost 2:00pm), but it also occurs when simply walking around waiting for the 8:00am time to come.
  
• Adrianne Avenicci will sometime sell cheese or mead to you if you wait enough times next to her. This is a glitch as she will still say, 'The finest weapons and armor.' then offer you a cheese wheel.
  
• Kill cams with dragons will sometime zoom out to show you nothing but the dragons rear completely obscuring the kill action taking place on the head. Magic and bow kill cams will sometimes do nothing, simply initiating the kill cam action without doing the attack, sometime resulting in your death while the enemy continues to attack you.
  
• Sometime the College of Winterhold will simply not render. This is incredibly rare, but has happened to me twice. The glitch was resolved after fast traveling to another location and back three times, but still happened nonetheless.
  
• Giants have started back with the space launching physics, knocking the character to almost the top of the world upon killing.
  
• Serena will become almost permanently hostile with other NPC's should you accidentally attack them.
  
• If playing on Master Difficulty at the start of the game, Alduin can kill you. This is not a glitch, but in combo with the new glitch which forces you through either passage when choosing your route of escape from Helgen, it can cause you to permanently die over and over as you will not die from burn damage until entering the other side of the door where it auto saves so that this happens over and over.
  
• Children (who cannot be killed) will sometime count as a witness to a crime and will make it impossible to escape bounty-less by way of disposing the witnesses. A glitch also exist where horses will sometime report a crime.
  
• There is a horse riding glitch where your character will appear inside the horses body where you become stuck.
  
• Several armor and weapons glitches with beast forms (werewolf and vampire lord). Weapons are sometimes stuck in hand and armor still on body.
  
• Weapons and armor falling through floor.
  
• Weapons disappearing from mantels and racks.
  
• Bandits will sometime not register you as an enemy until you talk to them.
  
• Large sections of river still do not render in some places particularly the reach.
  
• Water texture appearing on map in the area which you are located.
  
• Crossbow will sometimes not appear when drawn or will make arms disappear so it appears to be floating.
  
• Esbern's potion still does not work.
  
• Followers still don't level with the player.

?Complaints + Suggestions

• Complaint: Dialogue

• Contextual Dialogue: This is in relation to several things. The largest is, when stuff happens. Many times people will still say the same thing to you even after a major change. Like after completing the main quest, many people will still be awe struck that you are the Dovahkin and ask what is going to be done about this dragon crisis. This is especially bad with the Imperials v. Stormcloak story arc, as almost everyone acts as nothing has changed saying the same lines and acting as if General Tullius or Ulfric Stormcloak (depending on the side you took) are still alive and well. This is not only in the casual comments, but actual select-able conversations. Such as with the jarls after the main story, all of them can still be asked what they will do about the dragons. The dialogue is the exact same as before you slayed Alduin and some even infer he is not dead and you haven't even fought him. This problems stems into smaller things too, such as when people will insult you as the newbie of the Thieves Guild all the way up until you are the Guild Master. Also guards will seemingly 'know' that you are a member of dark organizations such as the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood, even if you never once get caught on a mission. This happens even if you are not wearing anything to relate you to said guilds. There are also cases of people you've done very significant and plot important quest for (sometime very personal to them) acting as if it is the first time they have met you or that they hardly know you at all. This can be seen strongly with the Jarl of Whiterun as he will often times tell you he is too busy to talk and not to bug him (or shortened version, f*** off). This happens even after saving his city twice and capturing the dragon in the hall with him. It is small things like this (or large in some cases) that completely shatter any immersion the game might be bringing. It also destroys any sense of worth you might feel from completing these epic quest.

• Suggestion: Dialogue

• Add More Dialogue (That Makes Sense): Many of these dialogue problems could be fixed simply by adding more dialogue and using some amount of situational awareness to apply them. Having said this, dialogue that differs from before and after quest are start would be the easiest way to start fixing this. Simply keep the set dialogue from when the quest is started, then add another set for when it is finished. This may take some time, effort, and money, but it is well worth it for how much it will improve the game. For example, make it so that the jarls will congratulate you on your job well done (or not depending on jarl) when asked about the dragon crisis and say that they will continue to do their best against the dragon crisis (since dragons are still flying around). Most easy of all would be to make people stop commenting on that Ulfic or Tullius character being a bad egg even after death. Simply change it to, 'I'm glad Ulfric/Tullius is gone now, maybe Skyrim can start to rebuild.' or something of the like. You could also add in dialogue that makes those on the losing side insult or curse you. Also one final note, it would not be a bad idea to get rid of the guy that is shouting about Talos in Whiterun should you take the side of the Empire as they are enforcing the white-gold concord and he is most definitely against it (you could even have him flee from Whiterun to Windhelm when Whiterun takes the side of the Empire).

• Complaint: Setting (Before & After)

• In Skyrim Things Never Really Change: Of course this needs a lot of elaboration. What we mean is, despite the fact that you do quest that 'change' monumental things, nothing actual does change. Take for example the most disappointing of all quest in the category, Stormcloaks v. Imperials. Even taking away the complete lack of change in dialogue, nothing changes of any significance in the world. The only noticeable change is that the guards all get new armor and names that say 'Imperial Soldier' or 'Stormcloak Soldier' depending on the side taken. The best example of this can been seen when taking the side of the Imperials in the very city which Ulfric ruled. As you all know, the Dark Elves and Argonians and anyone else not Nord lives in near poverty in Windhelm. This is due in part to Ulfrics hatred of any race non-Nord. Having said this, there is no options to try and change this nor is anything done to change this once Ulfric is defeated, despite the fact that the new jarl disliked Ulfrics policies on race. We would even be okay with a quest to change this, but as it stands there is nothing that is done. There is also very little change over the land. If you win for the side of the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor do not leave Skyrim or even reduce in influence despite Ulfric intense hatred for them and his complete lack of caring for their policies. And if you win for either side, there are still camps full of which ever side lost everywhere which act as if the war is still going and their leader is not dead. Cities that were previously in control of the opposite side seem to passively accept the change too and act as if nothing really happened. There isn't even a change of housing for other races despite their fear that Ulfric would make them all leave. This is a serious problem and one which ruins immersion in the game almost completely. This problem is not limited to only this arc though. Little changes within the holds after the completion of the main story. The Dark Brotherhood still has little to no members even after all the work you do. The Thieves Guild is still pushed around by Mavin Black-Briar even after restoring them to their 'former glory'. The towns of Whiterun and Solitude or Windhelm (depending on side you picked) never get repaired fully after the war. The Blades only get 3 new members if you help them and do nothing to return to their original cause or to help the Empire. All of these are quite disappointing and ruin any sense of accomplishment you might find from completing these quest.

• Suggestion: Setting (Before & After)

• Make Things Change: A lot of the things that do not change in Skyrim are easy to fix. Simply add more quest. We know this may seem cheap to some, but for us, it would be worth creating an entirely new character to experience these changes. Some examples could be making it so you can improve living conditions for the Dark Elves and Argonians in Windhelm. Making it so the Thalmor are ejected from Skyrim when taking the die of Ulfric and have them surprise attack at times. Make it so some races are forced to leave if Ulfric wins. Make the Blade return to Cyrodill to do their job again. The possibilities are limitless.

• Complaint: Races, Signs, and Class

• A Sense of Kinship & Destiny: Having just played through Morrowind and Oblivion again, we realized how absolutely insignificant races have become. Many of the once unique powers are now easily replaced by magic, perks, or shouts, and many of the benefits have been weakened or reduced so much that they hardly matter. There is also little mention of your race anymore. Despite high levels of discrimination in Skyrim, people seem to really not care what your race is at the end of the day. Even Ulfric will only mention once or twice that you are a High Elf despite the fact that he is at near war with them. Also NPC's of your own race really could care less too. Even amongst races which once held a strong sense of kinship (Kahjits and Argonians) there seems to be little care for who you are. It's basically come down to picking race not for perks, kinship, unique story, or anything significant, rather you pick them simply for how they look and the idea that they have a unique back story. Signs have also completely dropped away. Signs are more of a novelty now rather than a character definer. They have little importance other than the insignificant perk they give and can be changed with a quick fast travel to the nearest stone. Class too seems to no longer matter. There seems to be a complete and utter ambiguity about your character and what defines him. Being a warrior god mage blasting archer assassin from hell is as easy as simply level farming each skill. It makes having a truly 'unique' character damn near impossible.

• Suggestion: Races, Signs, and Class

• Have The Choices You Make Matter: Make it so that race is once again an important choice in TES. Have it so that it's harder or sometimes impossible to take Ulfrics side if you choose the wrong race (such as High Elf). Make it so that you can travel with the Khajit caravan or mingle in the Argonian dock shacks. Also bring back those unique perks to each race. Make people seriously think about the race that they wish to choose. As for signs, bring back some of their significance. Have dialogue based around them, such as thieve recognizing you as a brother should you be under the sign of the tower of the shadow. Have there be a little more definition to class. Not everyone should be able to become a God-King-of-the-Universe just because they want to. Have there be some specialization.

Ideas

• Bring Back The Good Old Days: As much as we love Skyrim and all of its beauty, as lot was sacrificed to bring about that beauty. The processing demanded for Skyrim is immense and in some ways hard to even think of. We wish to see some of the older things from TES brought back. Things like disease, actual extreme negative and extreme positive effects from drugs, character which are far beyond your capability to fight even when you are higher leveled, and most of all the ability to take out whomever we want. This pretty much sums up the ideas we have right now. Below are some more ideas that we have had, feel free to add to them in the comment sections and tell us whether you like them or not.
  
• The addition of spell forging or creation. As much as we loved creating my own spells and naming them in Oblivion, it made very little difference as to how we made them for they all looked the same. We believe that should a spell creator be added in to Skyrim it would be amazing.
  
• Allow staffs to be enchanted and forged.
  
• Add in dismemberment like with Fallout .
  
• Bring in the house creation for console. That was one of the ideas presented that was most definitely wanted.
  
• Bring in a Morrowind difficulty. This is something we believe could solve the problem of suddenly adding so many things out of thin air. The Morrowind difficulty (or 'real life' whatever you want to call it) would add more diseases, more extreme negative effects, make for much harder enemies, and generally add in the same effects Morrowind had for its many things (Skooma being one of the biggest as it has been reduced to a worthless restore stamina potion).
  
• Add an 'Arena' in some DLC and make it a multiplayer place. This is something we have dreamed about in TES, a chance for me to test my character against my friends. We believe it would add a whole new element to the game.
  
• Epic battles. One problem TES has suffered from since its humble beginnings is its large scale battles seeming like three dudes and you making the entirety of the army that is supposed to be saving the world, attacking a city, or wiping out the last great evil/good. It especially bugged us in Oblivion at the final battle against the epic Gate and in Skyrim when attacking whichever final city you arrived at.
  
• Make dragons more hardcoe. We're sorry, but no matter how much you want to make the game easier for people, there is a difficulty setting for a reason. Dragons are absolute push overs all the way until Ancient Dragons. The very statement alone, 'dragons are pushovers...' should make you stop and think how ridiculous that sounds.
  
• Bring back the epic skeletons. We're not sure why, but skeletons have become complete and utter husk of their former self in Skyrim. There was once a time when we could be seriously killed by a single skeleton. Where have those days gone?
  
• Stronger wolves. As the werewolf or lycan as they actually are, are a major part of this game, we feel that the wolves of Skyrim should be able to be little more intense. Perhaps add in some Elder Wolves or the Grey Wolves? Just an idea.
  
• Goblins. This one is understandable as they may only be native to Cyrodill, but if that is not the case we would love to see the return of the little green devils. They were a fun to fight novelty, and we of the Greybeards miss them greatly.
  
• Champion warriors. In every TES game there has at least been one character of unstoppable power with incredibly good loot. In Oblivion this was Umbra, in Morrowind this was Vivec, but in Skyrim...? It really seems like such a person (despite this being the fatherland) does not exist.
  
• Truely unique special items. Many of the items in Skyrim are unique and all of them look amazing. That being said, there is a flip side. Many of the 'named' and 'unique' items of Skyrim are the exact same as any other sword you can forge and can actually be un-enchanted (to get the enchantment) then re-enchanted better on the same type of sword and simply be given the name it had. This is one we believe could be easily fixed with some developer time and one we would love to see.

Just because you wrote a huge paragraph doesn't mean bethesda will look at it and patch the issues
Esberns potion still doesn't work
Followers still don't level with the player
They obviously don't care about the quality of their product (they care less and less each year)
look at how much better morrowind was than oblivion, and oblivion was than skyrim.

We agree with a lot of what you said and are aware that the likelihood of this leading to any changes is small. Having said that, it is small not impossible. I have a lot of faith in the TES series and a lot of love for it. Skyrim has some very innovative ideas and I believe it has the potential to surpass all its family that came before it (to an extent). We appreciate your addition of glitches that need fixing and will add them to the list ASAP. Please share this with your friends. A strong enough voice can change anything.

... ... .... ....


Very true.

In my Argonian file, I wanted the ability to join the Stormcloaks and negotiate with Ulfric to let my people into Windhelm. In the same vein, I wanted to make him allow the Dunmer into the wealthier parts of town on my Dunmer file. Little race-related things like that would be an amazing addition.