This thread concerns the possibilities of a (hypothetical) DLC or expansion centred around "Orsinium", the home land of the Orcs: how plausible it is, and how desireable (or not) it might be. The previous thread on this matter can be found here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1408472-orsinium-for-a-next-dlc/.

This topic does share some similarities to other threads pertaining to (potential) future DLC's, such as the one that can be found here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1411678-the-top-ten-things-you-would-like-to-see-implemented-into-the-next-dlc/. The key difference, however, is that where the last mentioned topic is about any idea or suggestion concerning a future DLC or expansion, this particular topic is concerned with the specific (albeit hypothetical) case of Orsinium.

This thread does not specifically aim to advocate a future implementation of Orsinium. It merely intends to bring people together to discuss the possibilities and merits, or lack thereof.

• What is Orsinium?
  
  Orsinium, Aldmeris for "Orc Town", has been the name given to several distinct cities/territories, held by Orcs, at particular moments in time. More than merely the physical manifestation of a city or a territory at different times, however, it also carries an important metaphorical meaning: it is the idea (or ideal) of an Orc homeland. The Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition (Orsinium) relates how "for most of the past two thousand years, Orsinium has existed only in the dreams of the Orc people" and "the dream of Orsinium was too beautiful not to be sought."
  
  The current city or territory of Orsinium is the third incarnation that we know of.
  
  • The first Orsinium existed during the First Era, in the Wrothgarian Mountains north of Wayrest (central High Rock), and was razed to the ground in 1E 980 after a thirty-year siege.
    
  • The second incarnation, or 'Nova Orsinium', was founded by Gortwog gro-Nagorm in 3E 399, in roughly the same area as the first Orsinium (though not necessarily in the exact same location). Despite a promising turn of events around the time of TES II: Daggerfall to TES IV: Oblivion, it is revealed in the book 'Lord of Souls' that (Nova) Orsinium was sacked again early in the Fourth Era (after the events of TES IV: Oblivion) and as a result the Orcs were once more without a homeland.
    
  • The third (and current) Orsinium is located between Hammerfell and Skyrim. This is related to us by a loading screen in TES V: Skyrim, which details that "Orcs, also known as Orsimer, are natives of Orsinium, a small mountain kingdom between Hammerfell and Skyrim. It has been sacked and rebuilt many times."

• Why is a DLC or an expansion centred around Orsinium even considered an option?
  
  In previous iterations of TES, Orcs have always been slightly under-represented. While being one of the 'factions' (for lack of a better word) you could interact with in TES II: Daggerfall, in TES III: Morrowind and TES IV: Oblivion they were a bit lacklustre. The 'faction' as a whole seemed somewhat generic, with relatively little NPC's that left an impression on the player. Most of them in TES III and IV failed to captivate the imagination (in my (subjective) opinion), with the exception of Umbra. Most of the other races represented in the game also seem to hold a rather pejorative view of the Orcs, which doesn't really do their 'cause' any good. If you want to know what I mean, check out the following books: 'The True Nature of Orcs', 'How Orsinium passed to the Orcs' (in Skyrim this is called: 'Orsinium and the Orcs'), 'The Pig Children', '16 Accords of Madness, v. XII' and of course the 'Pocket Guide to the Empire', 1st Edition ('The Wild Regions') and 4rd Edition ('Orsinium'). Snippets can also be found in 'The Five Songs of King Wulfharth', 'Wayrest: Jewel of the Bay' and the 'Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition ('Hammerfell') and 3rd Edition (Hammerfell).
  
  TES V: Skyrim, however, has delved much deeper into their background and has granted a rare insight into their culture. I would almost go as far as to say that they have been re-invented, to a certain extent. There is always the possibility that this was always the intended end result, and that we needn't look any further into the matter. It is, after all, perfectly reasonable to posit that they were fleshed out just because the developers wanted to flesh them out more, without intending to take this further. The mention of Orsinium in the loading screen might also be just that - a bit of 'fluff' or 'lore' in which we needn't look for a deeper, hidden meaning. There is always the possibility, however, that this is more than mere happenchance.
  
  A DLC centred around Orsinium would give us the chance to visit a location that is different from Skyrim proper, much like how previous expansions differed from the 'norm' as established in the main game. Shivering Isles brought us the eponymous Isles of Sheogorath's realm as opposed to Cyrodiil, whereas Tribunal gave us Mournhold and Bloodmoon gave us Solstheim when compared to Vvardenfell. Such an expansion or DLC would also offer the chance to delve deeper into a people that has hitherto remained somewhat mysterious and, in my humble opinion, underappreciated.
  
  Further more, Orsinium (as a mountain kingdom or city state) would just about be the right 'size' for an expansion. Entire provinces (such as High Rock or Hammerfell) would seem to be out of the question because of their large size. A smaller territory such as Orsinium, however, would fit right into the scope of an expansion.
  
  The previous thread has also established that a number of people would be interested in visiting Orsinium. I can imagine, however, that there are just as many people who wouldn't be as interested, or who would rather see something else entirely.

• Finally, where might this Orsinium be located?
  
  In the previous thread, multiple individuals (msxys, chickenkungfu and Kraigus Maximus) have drawn attention to the existance of a road to the south-west of Falkreath, which runs towards the province of Hammerfell. This road ends with one of the open archways that you cannot get past, and it has been hypothesized that this road might lead towards Orsinium. The posts in question can be found here: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1408472-orsinium-for-a-next-dlc/page__st__180. The contributions in question are the following: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1408472-orsinium-for-a-next-dlc/page__view__findpost__p__21506267, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1408472-orsinium-for-a-next-dlc/page__view__findpost__p__21572119 and http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1408472-orsinium-for-a-next-dlc/page__view__findpost__p__21572144. This was also an argument to hypothesize that a (hypothetical) DLC centred around Orsinium was a possibility.
  
  I have reason to believe, however, that this cannot be the case (with regards to this particular argument). The road in question that passes the open archway seems to lead towards Elinhir, a city in north-eastern Hammerfell. At least, if my interpretation of this map is correct: http://images.uesp.net/thumb/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg/800px-TamrielMap.jpg. It would seem unlikely that the Orcs would found Orsinium that close to a city held by the Redguard, who are, after all, enemies of the Orcs since time immemorial. I would consider it more plausible for (this) Orsinium to be located in the Western Reach, in the mountain range in between the (Hammerfell) cities of Dragonstar and Elinhir.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Would you like to see such a DLC or expansion? Why (not)? Please feel free to discuss, hypothesize, and share your opinions!

Yep. I'm all up for a full-on expansion that includes Orsinium.

Hopefully it include a Daedric realm as well due to the Orsimer lore being connected to Daedric princes. Hopefully it may even a quest involving the Thalmor due to Orsimer once being Aldmeri.

For a smaller dlc on par with Hearthfire then I'd like to Winterhold rebuilt.

I am still in favor of an expansion sized DLC taking place in Orsinium.

Depends how big Orsinium is. I can't see it being too big or else the other races around it would feel threatened. Especially considering it is built in a mountain location what is / was technically belonging to Redguards.

Well, I assume it would allow us to move outside the city a bit too, into the mountains. Would make a good combination.

Malacath = Ashpit

I agree with you 169% and more in every respect. You captured my own thoughts perfectly.

Perhaps the Reguards won't be much of an immediate problem. Consider:
1. The Thalmor have wrecked havoc in Hammerfell, and the Redguard have not yet recovered. Their hands are tied for the moment.
2. If the Orcs have rebuilt their city in the mountains, by definition it's rather inhospitable land - limited farming except for terraces and warmer, wet or well irrigated valleys; problems with the quality and availability of soils for agrarian purposes; and necessarily limited pasturage for cattle. Thus, if the land picked by the Orcs is land that the Redguards find undesirable, it's more likely they'll ignore their presence.
3. If the Orcs refrain from making their presence unwelcome - for instance, NOT siding with the Thalmor - it would help their situation a lot.
4. Perhaps the Imperium can be a guarantor of the safety and integrity of both Orsinium and Hammerfell. A third party, trusted (hopefully) by both sides, might be able to broker a reasonable settlement between the two.
5. The Bretons might want the Orcs to be successful on the northeastern borders of Hammerfell, simply so that the Orcs don't get any ideas or motivation to try starting over once more in High Rock.


Just a few musing and thoughts.....

Exploring THAT Daedric realm might make both the Shivering Isles and the small slice of Oblivion in DG look boring in comparison. The possibilities are MONUMENTAL!

i welcome orsinium.

I would very much welcome the chance to travel to Malacath's Ashpit. I also hope we get some more 'closure' on what exactly befell Nova Orsinium - the book 'Lord of Souls' isn't exactly very revealing in this regard. The 'legend' around Nova Orsinium (as 'the' homeland of the Orcs) was built up alot during TES II (and mentioned in books in TES III and IV), and for it to disappear entirely from the face of the earth in a seemingly offhand reference is a bit of a disappointment. Orsinium, because of its nature and location, would also open options for inter-faction strife (Hammerfell versus Empire versus Forsworn versus Aldmeri Dominion).


I would like that very much - as I said in the previous topic, I really hope they would deal with this differently than they did with Mournhold (Tribunal expansion for TES III: Morrowind). That felt like a bit of a cop-out, being teleported to the city (even though I realise full well they couldn't very well have implemented a large swath of the mainland). Orsinium is likely to be more than "a fortress ruled by savage law", hopefully also allowing us a glimpse of "a peaceable land of agriculture and commerce" (both from PGE, 3rd Edition, Orsinium). A city is partly defined by the surrounding countryside (in this case the mountains), so I would very much like to visit the larger territory and not be limited to the city proper. Seeing as Orsinium isn't likely to be very large, this might be an option.


My thoughts exactly. I would agree Orsinium isn't likely to be too big, perhaps about half the size of a Skyrim hold at most (I say this because Hammerfell is divided into provinces as well, and it's unlikely the Orcs would have been able to take an area the size of an entire province away from them)

Currently, Hammerfell is also fully independant from the Empire, so there's nothing really stopping them from attacking and razing the new Orsinium a third time. Unless they're too occupied with keeping the Aldmeri Dominion at bay (while there is currently peace between those two, I can imagine the Redguards would heavily garrison their forts and cities along the border). There's also the Forsworn of the Reach - due to its location in between Hammerfell and Skyrim, Orsinium is necessarily located in an area called the West Reach (which lies between Dragonstar and Elinhir) and which may or may not be perceived by the Forsworn as being part of the larger 'Reach' they claim. There's nothing to really substantiate that thought, but seeing the similarity in names it might be a possibility. The Forsworn within the Reach (hold) of Skyrim might also be tempted to try and forge an alliance with Orsinium, or at the very least establish diplomatic relations with them.

However, unless the Orcs were to procure the assistance of either the Empire or the Thalmor, I don't think they have a big chance of surviving. There is no reason why the Redguards of Hammerfell wouldn't be hostile towards them - their mutual history shows much the opposite. Unless the Redguards are powerless to act, there's bound to be an armed conflict sooner or later. The Empire might be (hypothetically) tempted to use the situation to force the Redguard 'back into the fold', so to speak, if it weren't for the fact they're currently too weak to either support the Orcs in a defensive conflict, let alone stand by them in an offensive war. Not only is the Empire currently embroiled in a civil war in Skyrim versus the Stormcloaks, they also have a Forsworn rebellion on their hands In short, I don't think the Empire would be of much help.

The Thalmor, on the other hand, would be delighted by such a turn of events. While I personally think it's unlikely they would bother getting actively involved, they might attempt to use Orsinium as a way to sow discord between their enemies of Hammerfell and the Empire. As you've mentioned, there's also the fact Orsimer were once Aldmeri. The Thalmor might be enticed to sway them to their side, if possible - though I have difficulty believing they would do so on an equal footing. Many people (mainly humans) seem to have difficulties viewing the Orsimer as anything other than beastfolk, so I'm not entirely sure what the haughty Altmer would think about the whole situation.


1. I agree. Not only do they have the Thalmor to deal with, but they're fully independant from the Empire as well, so they have to keep watch on both sides. In fact, this might very well be the reason why Orsinium was founded right there - the Redguard might be too tied down to other matters for them to respond.
2. While that is plausible, I'm not entirely sure if this would suffice for the Redguard to simply ignore their presence. Their enmity with the Orcs seems very deep-rooted. In the past, they've gone to some length just to get the Orcs out of the way, when they weren't a real threat to them (the first Orsinium was besieged for thirty years by an alliance of the (Yokudan) Order of Diagna and the armies of Daggerfall (High Rock) and Sentinel (Hammerfell)). Early in the Fourth Era, Nova Orsinium was also razed by combined forces of High Rock and Hammerfell, though the circumstances are less clear.
3. I think in this, they're between a rock and a hard place. I agree with what you've written, but on the other hand the Thalmor are pretty much the only ones who could actually make the difference for the Orcs. Neither of the other principal parties involved would seem to be either positive towards them at all (Hammerfell), neutral at best (High Rock) or be able to help them in any meaningful way (the Empire).
4. I don't think Hammerfell itself cares much for the Empire at this point, and the Redguards are likely to view the Orcs in a negative light simply because they're Orcs. Hammerfell tore themselves free after the Empire had made some pretty far-reaching concessions on their behalf to the Aldmeri Dominion, so I doubt they'd care much for the Empire - either as protector of Orsinium as a client-state, or as protector of Hammerfell itself. Besides, such a manoeuvre would be purely political on the side of the Empire, seeing the weakened state they're currently in. If anything, I'd think Hammerfell would probably remain neutral and not commit itself to either side. If they pull the card of the Empire (as their protectors) they're likely to become embroiled with the Aldmeri Dominion once more.
5. I agree. Hammerfell might also adopt a neutral view towards Orsinium as it would function as a buffer state between them and the Empire.