So through the course of trying out LittleBaron's awesome http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/16455 (quest version) mod I found out that it causes CTDs upon trying to load a save when my house mod, http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9541 is enabled. Later I discovered that http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/15896 does the same thing.

My ESM file loads fine, seems to be just the esp that's doing this. So I went through my esp file with TESSnip, removing chunks of the mod and testing by loading a save, over and over until I found the root of the conflict - the interior cells of my mod. I have 4 interior cells total and each of them cause CTDs when loading a save with either of the quest mods mentioned above enabled (it is possible to start a new game, though not to load a subsequent save with that character).

So I'm wondering.. does anyone know what I might have done to my interior cells that would cause this issue? Comparing the mods in TESSnip is not giving me any clues. The most dramatic thing I did was use some image spaces and added custom locations to the cells, though I can't see either of those being the culprit. I did try removing the master navmesh from the file with no effect.

I throw myself on the wisdom of the community - I'm getting nowhere with this!

I've known for a while that messing with 'locations' (LCTN record) is kinda buggy.. but in my recent research, I've found out a few things that help explain it. LCTNs pervade several other aspects of the game, not just the spot where they are assigned.. this can cause drama if not done correctly or if another mod conflicts with it. Point is.. I think it's the location data that's causing your problem; try recreating the mod without using them. (I know that sounds dramatic, but do a really basic version of it and test it out first)

The reason you can't try this with your CURRENT mod, is that the LCTN record is copied into your plugin file and remains there forever - even if you remove everything in your mod having to do with it. If you are aware of the issues by doing so, you can use Snip to remove that record and everything pertaining to it... but how to do that is beyond the scope of this posting. If you DO try that, you should be using v4.2 with specific config settings; anything older is way too buggy to even be considered. I've heard you can manually delete records with the CK, but I dunno how (I just use Snip).. you'd have to look it up; it has something to do with the "data" button under the "file" pulldown (and/or in the loading window).

Deleting records using the CK by "ignoring" them in the data window is very buggy for me. The CK crashes often when you try to reload the file and can completely trash your mod so save it first and test it well. I know there are tutorials on it that can do a better job of explaining, but you enter it by selecting your mod in the data window and selecting Details. Say no if it asks if you want to use an empty list and say no if it asks to display form strings. The window that comes up actually hides the Form ID column, which is the most important information so you have to expand the column to see it. In order to use the tool, you have to know the Form ID of the records you want to delete. I usually go ahead and open the file as active and you can browse through your cells to select the modified records you want to delete. Select them in the File Details window and hit delete. It marks them to ignore, which is a toggle and you can toggle ignore off if you decide you made a mistake. The ignore flag stays until you have reloaded the file and saved it so you can go back and toggle it again as long as you leave the CK open with the file loaded. Once you reload that file from scratch though, the records are deleted and gone. Hope that helps you. And one more time, do not forget to back up first and test frequently. Messing with the records in File Details can mess up your mod just as sure as anything else you can do to it. The problem I run into most often is that the CK has trouble loading some cells in the mod after they have been edited this way. They still play fine, but the CK crashes a lot until I load and save the file a few times. When that happens, I usually go to the back up and try again just to be sure. So load it and go into each of your cells by double clicking on the cell and thoroughly test it in the game before you call it successful and move on.

Oh and more to the point of your question, SluckyD is right. Locations can cause issues. Months back, people were having issues with my mod conflicting with some others that made no sense to me. I went looking for anything that seemed odd and noticed I had somehow created an edit of the location for one of the Doomstones. I snipped that out with the now banned TESVSnip (which frankly never caused me anywhere near as many headaches as the CK itself) and the problem went away. Note that there are going to be people on the forums who will tell you that using Snip will absolutely render your mod completely and totally useless and just mentioning it can bring them down on us like a howling flock of banshees. I have quit using it although, as I might have mentioned, it never caused me any real issues that I know of. But I did always back up before I used it as I once told somebody, using Snip reminded me of running with scissors. One wrong move and you are screwed. It has no safety nets.

Thanks for the quick and detailed responses.

To be clear, my original files are largely unsnipped. I have on occaison removed the odd 'dirty' edit with the tool but have never made major edits to my mod with it. The changes I have made have never caused me problems... I had no idea there was such a taboo! When i mention cutting out chunks of the mod and testing to see if it is the root of the problem i mean i would back up my original esp, remove whatever it was, test by running the game with the conflictng mod and my own running, and then revert back to the original if no issues were found. Also, the howling banshee thing made me lol.

I orignally added locations to cells with unique NPCs so that their aliases would fill correctly for my quest. Without the locations i ran into all kinds of problems with that for some reason. After reading this I went and snipped out all of the location records i could find (there was only one, my custom ncz_location). Still crashes. I tried this by ignoring the record in file details within the CK with the same result. I also have gone through my esp thoroughly with both the ck and snip and there are no unintentional dirty edits of vanilla resources that i can find.

Once i get home and have access to my pc i'll see what else i can do, but i'm nearing the point of giving up and calling it utterly incompatible. The mod is massive at this point with tons of custom scripts and dialogue so rebuilding it from scratch is not an option.

I'm typing this on my wretched ipad "keyboard" so please forgive missing letters and typos. I hate this thing. >.>

Are you using a custom location or a Vanilla one? I haven't tried to mess with custom locations yet, but one of those should work.. theoretically.

The problem with locations you may be still having is that the data referencing that location is stored in other records... like your quest and NPCs. Since it's still there, the game probably gets confused after you Snipped out your plugin's version of the LCTN. What you would (if you didn't already) is to remove all assignments made with that location (probably only in your quest/aliases); that should remove any subrecords in remote places that reference the location - even though it may be manually deleted.

THEN you'd delete the LCTN record for that location in your mod. If you only deleted the Vanilla LCTN in Snip, the data is still in all those objects that reference it - and the CK is likely to recreate that deleted copy of the LCTN in your plugin any time you save it (which would bring any issues you had back again). If it's a non-nilla Location object, I'm not sure how the CK would handle all that residual data... I'll have to look into it.


Regarding Snip: heheheh "howling flock of banshees" is hysterical! I just posted my definitive rebuttal and proof on the TESvSnip v4.2 comment section.. we'll see what kind of response I get.
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/514199-tesvsnip/page__st__210__gopid__5904107#entry5904107

But they are only PARTIALLY correct.. and even that sliver of truth most likely has no bearing on most every mod - as I say, I have yet to see proof to support their claims... though I just posted evidence to the contrary and explain the whole thing like it hasn't been heretofore. The type of circumstance which triggers that snippet of code they always throw in our faces is so rare that the only time I've ever seen it is during THIS testing - when I had to MANUALLY INDUCE it with a hex editor!! What it amounts to is that Snip is safer than the CK when it comes to deleting records... attested to in the above posts by the bugginess of using CK when doing that kind of thing.

If you DO use Snip, I recommend v4.2 until a newer version is released (v4.3/discontinued is hidden, but still being developed - probably to be released on a different page). Also, I recommend getting my brand new recordStructure.XML file - http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/21202. See your Skyrim data like you've never seen it before! (even if you don't use Snip to edit the data, I suggest using it to see what's still in your mod - dirty edits, lingering data (such as subrecords relating to the deleted location), dupe records, etc etc.

Thanks SluckyD. After reading the ongoing debate about TESVSnip I've decided to hold off on using it until some of the kinks are worked out. It's way over my head so I'm not going to comment on any one side of the debate. I appreciate your help nevertheless.

I have removed all LCTN records from my mod, both by taking them off of the cells and quest aliases one-by-one (only 2 cells were using the custom, non-vanilla location) and then setting the actual reference itself to be ignored in file details. Unfortunately users are still reporting CTDs with various mods. It seems most other house mods don't suffer from this issue so I'm wondering if I'm doing something horribly wrong here. Funnily enough the 2 mods I mentioned in the OP seem to work fine now, so perhaps my custom location broke them. Now it seems there's about 100 other mods that mine doesn't play nicely with so that's fun.

I don't have Update.esm as a dependency for my mod, could that be a problem? I'm not sure how to add it in, as I have a master file of my own. When I try to load Skyrim.esm, Update.esm and Nchuzzrezar.esm the CK scolds me for trying to load multiple esm files and doing it like that is the only way I know to add a dependency. Le sigh.

Here's a screenshot of the records included in my esp file: (not sure how helpful this is but it gives an idea of the extent of what my mod edits)
http://i.imgur.com/K3AIH.jpg

...and esm file:
http://i.imgur.com/g3adY.jpg

Once again, absolutely no vanilla resources were harmed in the making of this mod. The worst I did was disable some exterior trees that would have otherwise blocked up the courtyard. Any time I edited anything at all I created a custom version of it to toy with. No actual snipping occurred during the taking of these screenshots.

Anyone notice some glaring, conflict causing error? Some kind of record I should not mess with lest I make everyone's computer explode? Can you tell I'm frustrated? I think I'm going to give up on the whole thing soon.

Edit: Apparently I can't use BBCode to post the images... they aren't rickrolls I swear...

Jeepers, that forum link to Snip is funny. I thought the Nexus mods are trigger happy and would interfere in such a posting war.