DEVS:PVP and why the majority of players actually hate it!

MMO pvp is one of the hardest sub games that developers produce within their persistent worlds. The main problem is PVE players are not good (generally speaking)and particularly do not like pvp. Yes you read it right the majority of players do not actually like pvp, they pretend they do and then they voice their opinion for changes(swg=fail). Hear me out. I know this is hard to believe but I can explain why.

Have you ever been in a vent channel with a guild mate that is great in pvp? They hardly ever yell, smash keyboard and spout racist obscenities. Rather, they in fact are calm, collective and communicate instructions very well. They accept the fact that they may die a certain percentage of the time and always have a positive k/d or w/l ratio in which the latter seems more important.

The one thing almost every mmo does right in PVE is giving each player in their own right the god complex. What I mean is they build you up to be all powerful. For instance, you as the player evidently feel this when unleashing that "level 100 hurricane fire breathing dragon shadow that envelopes the screen," and watch all the npc's in sight flapping and flailing. All gamers find this very enjoyable and crave it . This simple fact is the exact problem with pvp!

Players in general become just one of the multitude of players with the same epic'ness type spell which makes it visually appeasing but a dime a dozen. And you know what? Usually there is someone there that does it better then you. For the next 100 matches if you're not in a premade, you end up the one flapping and flailing. All that powerfulness ends up worthless...

So what do you do as the developer to make sure each player feel epic, important and powerful? How do you solve so many mmo's fundamental problems with pvp? Well PvEvP of course!!!

That's right PvEvP!!! Imagine a player taking down hundreds of foes to his death and it not be an assist from a teammate. Pro's are probably thinking I already do this but the others are already looking for aim bots. You know what I mean.

PvEvP is when you have two sides fighting were players are champions in an npc bot war. For instance, castles (substitute castle for cave, forest, mountains etc.) on two sides spewing soldiers like LoL's creepers or Mount& blades castle sieges. Even if the player is the only one in the warzone, he along with bots can fight. So imagine 8/16/32 players with a never ending stream of bots. When archers fire a volley, when a sorcerer fires a nuke or even when a smasher cyclone flurries a war hammer, multitudes of things are demolished, impaled and flattened respectively. In this solution you could actually just watch from afar and be amazed at the war ensuing.

-This makes each player type useful

-This makes each player feel powerful

-The satisfaction of cutting down bots can alleviate or balance the negative psychological effect of the players death

-This will help with different player awareness levels (I'm new which way do I go? What should I be doing?)

-works in open world (think rift) (however I highly advise against it)

-the possibilities become endless

-as mentioned LoL and mount & blade have proven this is by far the best way to approach pvp in an mmo

This solution will definitely hit the middle of the bell curve and can be a very lucrative addition instead of a development nightmare.

DISCUSS!!!!

I would suggest you do some research on this game.

Should start here: http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/game-guide/the-alliance-war

ESO's PvP will be of the RvR type. Objective based faction War. It take place in Cyrodiil which does also include PvE elements. So yeah do some research on this game and I think you'll find the stuff you're talking about will be in ESO.

lol why draw an conclusion of a game you know nothing about OP.

Interesting idea, but I don't want bots in my PvP personally.

Accolon and Pangscar,
thanks for the feed back. However PvEvP will not be in the game from what I understand. Please feel free to read my post in its entirely before making quick presumptions on what I am posting about. Thanks again and I look forward to your responses.

I actually agree to some degree but only because im a hard core pvper. The issue is pvp ends up being just diehards and we need to get the majority of players involved. I think you know what I'm saying.

Well than:
Your points may be good, your system could work. But not in this game. Goodbye.

well its true it's kinda a conclusion, but also an eye opener and a solution. PVP is a very touchy subject and it seems to be the area that really makes are breaks mmo's nowdays.

Well I used to hate PvP, because the first game I ever PvP'ed in was Ultima Online and in that game it was ruthless, edge of your seat, heartpounding, action and every game since then pales in comparison to that. However there was one exception to that, at least for me, and that was Dark Age of Camelot. The reason it was the exception was because it required team work on a HUGE scale, and leading an army in DAoC on a Relic raid was something that unless you have done it is pretty hard to describe it and make it sound like something even those who think they hate PvP would like it....all I can say is you really do need to try the Alliance war in ESO otherwise you might be missing something that is freakin' awesome!

I always like people like you. This post is actually not for you and it is you sir I wish not come back to my thread. If you dont have anything constructive to say, our community does not want you.

Good point.. I'm totally anxious to try it! I'll check out DAoC. It seems pvp has been failing alot in many recent mmo's and I think i know why.

Personally I'd love a FFA PvP instance somewhere on the megaserver, for the people who enjoy this PvP type.

I normally have a positive K/D ratio and you still hear me, quite frequently, yelling obscenities and just plain raging. It's just how we do. I've been pretty good about not breaking any controllers or keyboards in a while though. Doesn't mean I hate PvP, I love it! My favorite PvP of all time has to be Dota, original and 2. MMO PvP is a lot different compared to other forms of PvP. There is a lot more time involved in it and its more gear/numbers based than twitch/skill based (IMO). There is still something great about it though. You'll have your 'carebears' in any MMO who don't care for PvP, but that's what raiding is for. To each his own.

i will disagree on just a few simple things with OP without going into the details of his primary argument.

1. I would argue against you that most mmorpg's get PvE right if they cater to a "god complex". I find PvE is either broken or useless in the vast majority of mmo's I play simply because they try making you an all-powerful and not believable character. PvE is my favorite part of the game too so I am usually very sad. the most successful mmo's on the market make it fully apparent that you are just one person among many, and everyone else needs to help you in order for success.

2. I find that the majority of players like pvp when there isn't an extremely high learning curve and the barriers to entrance into pvp aren't overly difficult and too intimidating. It's exactly like a market transaction. If pvp looks way to complicated (ie: requiring calculations of stat gear), or relies on a drastically high investment just to be mediocre, then players avoid it. In the same vein, if pvp is ultimately too simple, not fulfilling, and provides low incentive to enter then people will also avoid it.

PvP needs sufficient incentive for entering, and not require a degree in accounting or astrophysics in order to comprehend. Now some of you know that I am not a huge fan of the impact of casual gamers on the genre. Regardless, I am just stating the main things that would make PvP popular to the masses.

QFT. FFA is one of the best types of PvP. It really tests your personal skill and strategy and completely takes relying on others out of the equation (for the most part). That being said, I don't think we'll ever see FFA in an MMO.

If you go try DAoC make sure you look up how to play on the server that is before The Trials of Atlantis expansion. That was why I quit and many others did as well, it killed the game completely...The day I quit it was after my guild had done a raid in the ToA expansion and I am not kidding you I was at my keyboard for 16+ hours and finally I gave up and logged out. Those who stayed and finished said it took them about 4 or 5 more hours to complete it. As soon as I realized the next day that was what I had to look forward to, besides PvP, I went and found the "I quit" website as fast as I possibly could and I have never been back. Later when reading in the forums it was FULL of posts complaining about those long a-s-s-ed raids and and the gear grind that ToA was....Thankfully I don't think Matt Firor was still part of the development team for the ToA expansion....

I think EQ had FFA on Rallos Zek although with a lvl restriction to prevent high lvl's from taking on lowbies, which was cool to me.
Ultima Online and Meridian 59 had FFA as well as Darkfall and Mortal Online. Meridian itself is dead, as is PvP inEQ1, Darkfall is gimped and Mortal Online is flawed and will not make it to the game they promised it would be.
There are some FFA titles on the way like Age of Wushu and some others.
Anyways, I love Elder Scrolls and I will play this game. No matter if there will be an FFA option.
One can dream though... ,)

From my experience, end game PvE hasn't been much different in terms of mentality. The high-end often turns out to be a b****-fest that I just sit idly by and watch as my party explodes on itself. Just a bunch of uppity little weiners getting their handbags out over things like equipped gear, whether the tank/healer can compensate for them well enough, claims to loot etc. Everyone patronising everyone. Just around tasks that an unskilled, uneducated, possibly mentally challenged person could pull off.

I am certainly not lying to myself when I say I love competition. Although it can be a bit unhealthy. I hate stupid enemies. Even more than I hate stupid teammates. And I HATE stupid teammates. I'm in it for those close, well-played, unpredictable battles against enemies who might feel the nerves on the other end. Not to mention the joy of making a reputation within a community for increasing a teams likeliness to win.

No.

- PvE is actually one of the things most MMO's get wrong, or at the very least do a poor job of.

- Making players into gods is actually the complete WRONG thing to do. The correct way to go about it is to find that perfect balance between making a player feel like a normal realistic being while still maintaining the possibility to do great things.

- You are thinking INCREDIBLY small scale here "So imagine 8/16/32 players with a never ending stream of bots." this is an MMO therefore the PvP needs to include hundreds of players in one area and thousands of players over all.

- You mention LoL, LoL is a MOBA and as such is a COMPLETELY different genre of game, even more creeps in MOBA's exist solely for XP and gold until the later stages of the game.

- Bot PvP is one of the absolute worst and most UNSATISFACTORY form of PvP ever unless the AI of the bots is up to the level of human intelligence, but even then it's still lacking.

- I have no idea what games you've played but there have been plenty of MMO's with FANTASTIC deep, fulfilling and epic PvP that is pure Player vs Player such as structured PvP games like DAoC, WHO, hell even Planetside (yes it's an FPS) and more unstructured PvP types that leads to all sorts of random and unexpected battles such as in games like WoW. The only MMO's that have recently had bad PvP was GW2 and SWTOR, and even then that's simply because the games in general were just bad.

- Also the title is pointless because a) you and you alone don't know why some people dislike PvP therefore the devs really don't need to pay attention to this, and also the PvP crowd is quite large so I really wouldn't say it's a "majority" that dislikes it.

- This was just pointless.

At the risk of sounding mean: I think it's a little arrogant to assume that everyone hates PvP and loves PvE, despite what they say.

Guild Wars 2 is thriving at the moment as a PvP game. A better title would be: Why I and many others hate PvP in other games.

You know, I've been reading this forum since it has been open.

Personal opinion incoming---Some of the posters here I would be happy to play alongside. Other posters here have an attitude and personality that truly reinforces the feeling that I wouldn't want to bother to even talk to them, let along play alongside them. "Our community"? The hardcoe pvpers who look down on anyone who might be playing the game for other reasons? The bullies who intimidate new players to the point of quitting the game?

I am still very undecided about whether to even attempt this game. Mostly due to the attitude of some of the posters about how they intend to play. I get the "My way of playing is the only one that matters, so svcks to be you." vibes, and it doesn't make the game appealing at all to me.

Now, switch to moderator: The forum is open for posts by members, as long as they follow the rules of the forum. If you believe a post is a problem, just report it and let the mods sort it out. Telling people to shut up and get out really isn't constructive.