I've been reading a lot on the forums around the disgruntlement's surrounding the announcement there will not be Raid oriented end-game. Unfortunately I think the majority of MMO fans have yet experienced a game that has captured their imagination for such a long period of time as WoW and they cannot viably see any other setup working unless it follows the WoW Raid model. Yet, this is entirely the problem, game designers following too close in their footsteps creating knock-off clones... it will never work, they are not WoW! Games like UO and DAoC where before the majority of peoples time - these did not work in this Raid/Guild style!

It is my opinion that WoW Style Raiding is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to MMO end game content - this was just the method WoW used to keeping its fan base very well but not every MMO has to follow these rules to be successful. What also hinders players opinions is that other MMO's have failed to sustain their fan-base when deviating from this model and not conforming to a Raid based end-game BUT these games did not have the answer for alternate end-game progression e.g. starwars online and guild wars 2.

I believe an RvR end-game system does basically the same effect as raiding, it creates those elite players that people look up to, like the 'best' WoW PvE guild members on a server. It rewards those who are highest skilled in solo/group AvA/RvR with additional battle skills which replace the 'WoW top tier gear'. Look at DAoC as one of the very few examples of this with limited PvE, this has survived for many years. I believe ESO will encapsulate this along with other rich end game content to further supplement.

Also... its not like there will be NO PvE... ESO will have an element of group PvE; it has been announced there will be rewarding dungeons which will require a group with bosses. The most exciting of there is there is the "DAoC Darkness Falls" equivalent This is a dungeon in the PvP/RvR, which in DAoC was controlled by one faction who was dominating RvR capture points. When the tides turned in the battlefield (Cyrodiil) the dungeon would close for the factor who lost control and open to another, now dominant, realm. This would in turn allow the newly controlling faction players to enter and begin farming the illustrious loot while in turn sparking a number of battle between the players trapped inside when the realm control switched. HOW MUCH FUN DOES THAT SOUND!?!

Albeit there will not be scripted raid fights consisting of 40 organised people standing in the correct place wiping and repeating. Earning points and collecting loot that overpowers any grind-able PvE or PvP/RvR solo/small group content. This basically alienates people who dont join guilds!!

just my 2cent.

Don't forget once you hit level 50 there are two more huge zones of content for you to PvE in outside of the AvA zone.

Also, many who dislike PvP (not me, but there are many) will disagree that PvP endgame = PvE endgame.

Lastly, the fundamental issue with this is that WoW players and MMO fans in general should not be ESO's target audience as they are fickle, uninvested in the franchise and largely nomadic in nature. We can only expect a three-four month commitment from the bulk of them. TES fans are the only solid and large enough player-base this game has going for it and the devs should make every effort to cater to them first.

Except they've explicitly said time and time again that they are building a game to appeal to MMO fans too.

From what I have heard the TES fan's just want a game in keeping with the Lore that follows on from the series. I don't think there are any rifts with them and PvE vs PvP end game - thats more between outsider fan base? Correct me if im wrong.

I just think that a lot of WoW players are like kids who have just lost their virginity - until their eyes get opened they will always think no one will ever compare

And all MMO players all want raiding or... is that just the WoW fan base....

Posted this elsewhere, but I think it fits here as well:

OPEN WORLD PVP like we will have in ESO, like DAoC had, and really not many other MMO's. A few tried at it and failed, but open world PvP when done right adds so much more challenge to a MMO than any raiding or other scripted content can ever do no matter how well made it is made. You really wont know what I am talking about unless you have actually tried it, because it is very hard to explain the experience to somebody who only knows instanced PvP battlegrounds/arenas (8v8 or whatever) or duels or raiding as the only end-game content available.

Let me tell you that I have always been mainly a PvE player, I love exploring the world of any MMO that I have tried, I love going through the dungeons solo or as a part of a group AND I love trying those raids... ONCE! I don't enjoy the same raids again and again, day in and day out, every freaking day. NO, it gets so bloody repetitive and yes BORING!

I totally respect those who loves continuosly raiding, and yes I completely agree that raids should be in the game, and I know that they will be in form of the Adventure Zones. It is just not my cup of tea, thank you.

Personally, I am so happy to know that in ESO raiding will not be the one and only way to get the best gear, and you wont be forced into raiding in order to stay competitive. I am so happy to know that ie. master crafting can bring you gear equal to raiding etc. There will be many ways to get good gear, and raiding will be just one of them. How is that not just a good thing which benfits everybody and their prefered play style?

Let me tell you another thing. When I first tried out DAoC back in 2001 I didn't have the slightest interest in PvP, I just wanted to get out there, explore the world and meet new friends in the game. I loved the exploring and PvE'ing. I did just that for a long time until somebody one day said 'Hey, lets go exploring that RvR zone, its a blast!'. We got a 8-man group going and we ventured into RvR-land, oh my it was new and exciting! We were all PvE'ers and we found PvE'ing in RvR so refreshing, and on a whole new level compared to anything we had tried before. Sure we got wiped out by groups from the other realms from time to time, but we soon learned our ropes, and we learned to fight back! I was sold to the combination of open world PvP and PvE content in the same area.

PvP dungeons and keep battles only adds further to greatness of that open world PvP, but details on those will make this too long so skipping that here. No scripted PvE content no matter how hard or challenging can compete with the thrill of those open world PvP elements. There are no two encounters in open world PvP's XvX encounters that are the same, something is always new and different than yesterday, unlike those raids that people seems to be so hyped about.

I challenge everybody who plan to play ESO to give the open world PvP in Cyrodiil at the chance that it deserves. No matter how hardcoe PvE'er, raider or whatever you think you are, and no matter how bad experiences you have from PvP in other games, I can guarantee you that this is different!

Sure, it will not be for everybody, and some will continue to do their PvE and raids. But I also think that many of those players will find the PvP just as interesting as I did back then in DAoC, and will be attracted by the open world PvP.

Best thing about ESO is that there will be something for everybody so please keep an open mind and give it a try. Try all aspects of the game, I know I will

Judging from the reaction to the quotes from yesterday it would appear as though quite a large chunk do.

If we think about this a little bit, what sort of people will be following a game pre-beta on forums - probably those who are quite "hardcoe".

I would be confident in assuming that the "large chunk" of people you are referring to on this forum are made up from regular raid participants in largish guilds and not the casual gamer. I would also be confident in assuming that the individuals pushing Raiding are those who spent a large portion of their MMO lives playing WoW and are now looking for something new "thats basically WoW but not WoW" i.e. ALL THE OTHER FAILED MMOs.

The "large chunk" of people here, on this forum, is representative of a small chunk of what will make up ESO actual fan base.

I am happy to see the integrated endgame that is being discussed for ESO. If people want to play social games that have ZERO competition then they have plenty of options. But I think most people believe that a bit of friendly competition makes things more fun.

People are making to much out of the word "raid",,,..i will presume to speak for pve'rs and say they do not want raids per se...they simply want some meaningful, goal orientated pve end game they doesn't go stale after 3 months.

This is not at odds with ESO lore any more than pvp is....the two are also not mutually exclusive, they can survive together, they should survive together as they will pull more players which will benefit both styles of play...also if you limit yourself to one style and totally dismiss the other style of play, you are doing yourself and the future of this game a great dis-service.

I like and participate in both pvp and pve.....a game that only had one or the other would become tedious very quickly, there are exceptions to the rule but not one single pvp centric fantasy MMO has gone the distance, like wise DDO is the only pure pve style game that ever went anywhere for any length of time, and even that was a small, niche market.

Embrace and push for both styles of game, if you truly wish this game to last.