Thats interesting... considering its not possible for you to have played the game to lvl 50 yet. You have no way of knowing that, nor is it relevant to the topic

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2013/10/07/ask-us-anything-variety-pack-8:

For next time, let's not throw out points because they don't fit your argument.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/11/tamriel-infinium-horizontal-vs-vertical-progression-and-the-el/

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2013/10/07/ask-us-anything-variety-pack-8

There is horizontal progression after level cap through the veteran system, it is already confirmed and fleshed out if you care to actually look instead of making uninformed pronouncements.

Thats all well and good, but lets take another look at the title of the topic, and ask ourselves... how does this info contribute to the discussion topic. The answer - It doesnt.

What I said is still true, no one has played it yet.

Mmhm..

Though, on another note, it's almost exactly what you proposed at end game; no levels and lateral progression.

It that the sort of progression that you want, or something more detailed?

I guess I'm asking: If they took the approach from end game and put it towards leveling, would that be a decent compromise?

You brought it up for discussion.

The post lvl 50 progression does sound like its all about skills and this veteran progression kinda sounds like levels still....

My original topic suggestion is aimed at removing the need for level rat race and follow the quest marker race that I am tired to death of seeing in MMO's when there doesnt need to be.

An MMO can actually be successful without a level system, and if the game is designed poorly, a level system can only speed up its demise.

The other thing that troubles me is the speed of progression. This is going to be a subscription based game right? From what I have seen, players might potentially reach lvl 50 in as little as 1 week for the no life hardcoe player. Perhaps 1 month for the casual player. I can only speak for myself here, when I am able to reach end game content that quickly and easily, or just knowing that other players are doing it while Im stopping to smell the roses, I lose interest in that game almost immediately and forever.

If thats how this game is gonna be, and it certainly appears it will... Then based on previous MMO's game experience that I have played that are the same way I see zero reason to even buy the game when I already know I will lose interest in playing it after a month. This may or may not be how it will be on release but after 1 beta session this is the impression that was left on me.

The problem in the case of ESO (and lots of other RPGs) is that the level is basically a quick way to judge if you're ready to take on the next challenge and the game is consequently designed around that idea. Think of it this way: Your character level doesn't mean anything, it could just as easily be removed and you would still have the same power. Leveling is merely a tool to access new content in a sequence, rather than picking and choosing. Kind of like a promotion. And if the game is built around that idea, then there's nothing that can be done to easily change that, even if you remove the level number altogether, because the underlying design is still there.

Now to have system where your character develop each skill individually, it's important to understand that even if you have no level, there should always be a progression, that is, you can't defeat the biggest baddest boss in the game if you only train flower picking and blocking. It doesn't work that way. Another thing to keep in mind is balancing each skill with itself and with each other, a level is a good way to approximate your individual skill levels but if there's no level, there's no easy way to approximate where you are on the curve. I strongly oppose the idea of player skill > character skill when character skill is part of the game in the first place, if you play the game good, then there's no reason to have a one-handed skill, or archery skill, because it won't matter, because your player skill outshine the character skill and thus character skill is unnecessarry, unless you keep a balance between the two.

And by balance I mean that even if you are a good player, your character skill is still part of your power, so if you have lvl 10 in one-handed and you meet someone with 100 in one-handed, it's only reasonable to assume that your character is not good enough (that is, lack the active and passive abilties) to beat that lvl 100 player, unless that player really svck. You are at a grave disadvantage but if your opponent doesn't utilize his skills then sure you can win but the chances are very slim because you lack the actives and passives to beat that player. What I'm saying is that in such a system, there is no 'this way' or 'that way', they have to connect somewhere.

And depending on which side of that balance is favoured, you get either a more linear progression or no progression (but more choices). I think Minecraft is a very, very good example of a game that have no progression, you don't have to mine this to get to that or get this to mine that except for a few instances. Point is, it depends on the kind of game you want to make, runescape (give credit where credit is due) is a good example of a almost perfect balance between progression and freedom of choice.

If they stick to the current leveling speed you should be plesantly surprised. I was.

Remember when it took close to a year to get max level? Heck my first main in AC1 got to 42 in 1-2 years of playing - and he was guild leader getting xp from 200 vassals as well!

I love the idea of no levels. I think it would fit in great to what ESO is trying to become. Granted, it has a long way to go yet. However, if it were modeled like The Secret World in terms of levels and skills, I think it would be wonderful. In TSW, if your not familiar with this title (in which case you should, without question, go try it. It is FTP at the moment!), has no levels and rewards you with skill points and attribute points as you complete quests or actions in game. The skill system allows you to (as in ESO atm...) equip any skills you have chosen based on what weapon you have equipped.

You can learn every skill in the game simply by doing more quests, actions, raids, dungeons, whatever. Once you learn the skills you want, they are usable based on what weapon you have equipped, which can be changed on the fly. It is a great system and one I would like to see implemented in more games.

Anyway, I think it is a better route than what currently is offered in ESO in terms of skills and abilities. ESO isn't designed as Skyrim is, where you can just put points into whatever skill you choose. While you can pick and choose what you want to do, it doesn't seem you have access to everything because of the current choices you have to make at character creation.

Mmm... AC... No one seems to have been able to capture the essence of that game since... I would LOVE a current day version.

Morningthaw FTW!

what i mean is, one side will never convince the other side. no one wins. people can fight til the day they give up gaming and they wont change their stance

Last time I tried to TSW it was B2P. Albeit, the entry price was only $20. Has that changed recently?