That's what the recent Elder Scrolls games have been missing. The politics.

Daggerfall was a rich political tapestry of guilds, factions, kings, and countries. Daggerfall against Sentinel versus Wayrest. The Underking versus the King of Worms. The Empire and the Blades versus pretty much everybody. The entire story was multi-layered and fascinating... The way the politics of the Bay led to the King of Daggerfall being felled by a secret Wayrest asssassin during the battle against Sentinel during the War of Betony, which led to the Emperor's letter (addressed to the Queen of Daggerfall) being delivered not to the wife of the dead King Lysandus, but to the wife of the newly-crowned King Gothryd... It was clever and it was steeped in intrigue.

Morrowind was even better. There you had the Empire, the Great Houses, warring religions, private trading monopolies, the guilds, the Imperial Legion, Sixth House cultists, indigenous tribes, and the god-kings of Morrowind all entwined, each with their own allegiances. House Hlaalu's covenent with the Empire. House Telvanni loyal only to themselves. The Cammona Tong's infiltration of the Fighter's Guild, using their power to stamp out the Thieves' Guild... It was a more complex and believable world than any they've ever come up with.

They lost their way during Oblivion. Where was the complexity there? There wasn't any, as best I can remember -- it was pure fantasy, all demon invasions and not much else. Skyrim had small flashes of brilliance with the dispute over the de-deification of Talos and the Aldmeri Dominion playing the Empire against the Nords, but mostly it was just dragons dragons dragons. There was none of the complexity of Daggerfall and Morrowind.

I hope when TES6 it takes another look at what made TES2 and TES3 great, at what made Game of Thrones great. I hope it takes the time to flesh out the world better than the last couple games.

Skyrim has sparked so much controversy and arguments between fans about whether the stormcloaks or the Empire are the right path to take. What would the outcome be for each route long term? How would that effect the rest of the continent? If you dig around in game you find out the Aldmeri Dominion are rooting secretly behind the Stormcloaks because with an Independent Skyrim, it's easier to overthrow them and the whole empire.

None of the other games have put this kind of depth in the politcs and havent sparked as much conversation among the fans.

I'm hoping TES VI takes place in Hammerfell after the Second Great War, and the Thalmor rule half the province. Then again, I suppose it wouldn't have to be after the war. Kematu does hint that the Dominion is back in Hammerfell, and if they are the Empire wouldn't openly intervene because of the White-Gold Concordat. Anyway, it would make for a very intense setting, full of political intrigue. Not only would we get the Dominion and the Empire behind the scene pulling strings, but also the political wrestling between the Crowns and Forebears, and the noble houses of Hammerfell.

I personally find the Politics to be the most frustrating part of game of thrones... Not because it's poorly done, but because it's so well done. They're all a bunch of narrow minded, self serving jackasses who can't see the threat right in front of their face. There's nothing heroic about it, there's nothing unexpected or particularly interesting, and most importantly, there's no victory to be had.


What made Mkrrowind great (not so much Daggerfall, as its politics were actually rather undeveloped) was that the political squabbles of the province helped accent the main plot, they didn't dominate it. Skyrim did something similar, though not quite as well. That's not what Game of Thrones does.


Politics and political intrigue are good. Having it smother the plot in conspiracies, pointless squabbles and absolutely idiot characters isn't good.

But that's beside the point. The politics of Morrowind were good because they didn't dominate the scene. They played into the culture of the Dunmer and the construction of the atmosphere, but they didn't overshadow the plot. Politics alone do not lend well to forming a plot, because they're frankly impossible to resolve.

This is not a GoT thread, it's about how politics are portrayed in TES.

Take the time to read the OP and you'll see that.


If you want to discuss GoT, use the thread in CD: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1603066-a-thread-of-ice-and-fire-game-of-thrones-asoiaf-21/

Which was done in a not so clever, *WE'RE SLAPPING YOU WITH THIS PLOT" way, and that was pretty much all the politics we got. It's how I'd do politics if I was introducing my child into that kind of thing. The majority of debate was revolving almost solely around those who claimed that Ulfric's full of BS, and those who think that the Empire needs to reclaim their ball sack, not something to seriously boggle your mind, it's a matter of a very simple opinion, which is based simply on whose story sat better with you. And you didn't have to dig at all to find out that Dominion is cooking a scheme, simple playthrough of the main stories, once again, slapped you with "DOMINION IS GAAAAY", and there was hardly any hidden content that you could find that would seriously enlighten us about their goals.

There is actually more nuance that that. And when you say Skyrim's story is "a matter of a very simple opinion, which is based simply on whose story sat better with you"...well, you can say that about a lot of stories. You can say it about Morrowind's: does the Tribunal and especially Vivec's story sit the best with you, or is it Dagoth Ur's, or is it the Ashlanders'? No kidding it is based on whose story sat better with you. That is kind of the point. Morrowind's politics were done better, IMO, but Skyrim's was deeper than some make it out to be. There is more to it than just "Is Ulfric a gigantic [censored]?" There were in-game books that detailed more about his background so you could get a better feel for his character. And then when it comes to the Thalmor, most people will want to look more into the lore to see why they have such a huge problem with Talos, which then will lead many of them to look into the creation myths of Mundus and the origins of Talos. There is actually some hidden content if you look hard enough. Not as much as Morrowind's, sure, but it is still there.

Skyrim's "politics" involved too much stuff that is blatantly ripped right from real life specifically things that invokes Godwin's law. As a long time participant in Civil War threads, all I can say is it mostly consist of the exact same arguments hurled from each side.

Hopefully Bethesda can try to be more original this time... or at the very least try to be less obvious.

Also, Game of Thrones use to do politics very well in the first couple of seasons, but as of the last two, it's politics have devolved into complete nonsensical and stupid rushed OOC plot points.

It would be nice to see some intrigue, maybe in elseweyr or valenwood where dissidents of Thalmor rule and followers go against each other both subtly and on the battlefield, however it can't dominate the whole thing that's not Elder Scrolls, Elder Scrolls is where you search through dungeons and horde every item of value you can get your hands on, it is where you spend hours customizing your own character, playing an hour then re-doing it or going to the face-sculptor, it is where you see talking cat people and think it's normal. Sure bring in politics but don't have it dominate the story - I'll play tell-tale Game of Thrones if I wan't a game about politics and choices.

Best case of bonafide courtly nonsense is going to be, without a doubt, Highrock. Do other nations have a deadly decadent court? Sure. At any significant level on par with the Breton's? Not likely. The Crowns and Forebears may have reconciled somewhat after the Great War, but centuries of screwing one another over isn't going to disappear over night. Problem is, the Ra'Ga are very direct about how they do it. Or rather, how they don't do it, as in completely ignoring any calls for aid nine times out of ten when the other side wants it. Alinor could be a contender, but we're looking at a very different kind of political landscape on the whole.

@Chaka: I think you're being disingenuous when it comes to what Skyrim did with the Civil War. Sure, when it comes to the internal machinations of the Stormcloaks, its defintely lacking, but given the (occasional) great set pieces written arguing for one or another along with the plethora of material they use to form their arguments. Sure, the level of participation in those events in-game leave a lot to be desired, but its far and away one of the better facets of the world Skyrim presented to us. If anything, I'd go as far to say it was way, way more engaging then Morrowind's managed to be, even if Morrowind had the benefit throwing in a religious organization into the mix.

While I did generally like what Skyrim had, I think there are two main issues: 1) what is presented on the surface isn't as deep as it could be, and 2) overall, the dividing line between factions can seem sort of binary. These two, in some cases, go hand-in-hand.

With some exceptions, Skyrim presents a sort of dichotomy in the Civil War: you either side with the Imperials, or with the Stormcloaks. But it doesn't explore the differences within those factions well enough--a faction within a faction, I guess. For example, there is one Jarl (I can't remember which one) who is pro-independence but does not trust Ulfric. What about anyone else? That isn't really explored a whole lot. What about division within the pro-Imperial side? At the end of the Imperial questline for the Civil War, you could hear Legate Rikke mutter "Talos be with you" after Ulfric dies, hinting that she has loyalty to the Empire but she struggles with the ban on Talos worship by the Thalmor. I can't think of anybody else of the top of my head that may have similar feelings. The game does not really flesh out any divisions within the factions. You could have perhaps had a questline where there was a pro-independence group that doesn't want Ulfric heading it, and plans to overthrow him. You could have had more in-game books detailing such a thing. Perhaps there was more Bethesda had in this regard and they had to cut it?

As for Daggerfall and Morrowind:

Morrowind had the most fleshed out politics of the series, and there are multiple political situations. When it comes to the imminent threat of Dagoth Ur, you have multiple factions: the Tribunal (primarily Vivec) and their temple, House Dagoth attempting a resurgence, the Ashlanders, and the Dissident Priests. When it is about the Great Houses, there is Redoran, Hlaalu, and Telvanni. The Great Houses have their own opinions about Imperial presence, and they also have their own bases of power on Vvardenfell.

Now that you say that, Lachdonin, I think I actually agree to an extent on Daggerfall. Daggerfall, while it did a good job with its politics, missed out on some opportunities as well. The only city-states that played a significant role in the politics and main quest of the game were Daggerfall, Wayrest, and Sentinel. What about any other city-states trying to become a top dog in the region? No Abibon-Gora, Glenumbra Moors, Ykalon, Totambu, or Lainlyn trying to gain a real foothold, for examples? There could have been more done in this regard.

I think the politics in Skyrim gets more flack than it deserves but IMO it is one of the areas in the game that does waste some potential.

One thing that can be learnt from the Silver Ladder in Mage: The Awakening and the Lodge of Sorceresses in The Witcher franchise is that mages and politics are a fun combination. I think that the Synod and College of Whispers have potential here. Here's what I've thought of them:

The Synod

The Synod consider themselves to be the true successors of the Mages Guild, but wish to avoid making the mistakes of the latter. In their eyes, the guild became aloof from the concerns of the society it served. It enlightened its members and offered knowledge to the public, but didn't do enough for the common man. And recklessly loose regulation allowed the hubris of a few to cause devastation to many.

It has gained mass popularity by offering affordable healthcare and tuition (including teaching peasants to heal themselves) and by protecting people from rogue wizards and daedra. And they don't just teach magic. They educate mages, battlemages, healers, priests, historians, lawyers, politicians, the rich, the poor and so on.

The College of Whispers

The College of Whispers consider themselves to be the true successors of the Mages Guild, but wish to avoid making the mistakes of the latter. In their eyes, the guild became distracted from its pursuit of knowledge by getting mired in politics and red tape and by attempting to appease a populace that couldn't be pleased. Their ethos is very much like that of the College of Winterhold: members can study what they want so long as it doesn't bring harm to other members or the institution itself and while sharing knowledge is encouraged and rewarded, it isn't mandatory.

However, they hypocritically turn to politics for two reasons. The first is that they want a continent wide network to research and share knowledge between all known cultures and operating this widely safely requires the permission of governments and local rulers. The second is that the Synod is constantly attacking their organisation and so those who wish for it to prosper legitimately are forced to fight fire with fire.

Reception in Tamriel

Cyrodiil

Both are ubiquitous. The Synod maintains most of the old guildhalls, while the College of Whispers operates more discreetly in private properties under patronage of wealthy members and sympathisers (who can regular call in favours in turn). While the Synod has managed to claim the Arcane University as its headquarters, its heartland is Colovia. Whereas in Nibenese high society, open support for the College of Whispers is progressive and fashionable.

High Rock

Similar to Cyrodiil, but closer to a 50:50 split of favour between the two. The College keeps laboratories in remote parts of the countryside for some of its most controversial research. The various witch covens are a problem for the Synod. In practice, they don't directly confront more benign non-daedra worshiping coven such as the Beldama Wyrd and even respect some of their principles, but they what they can to draw away would be witches. They fight against the more antisocial covens and teach knights and witchhunters to do so more effectively. Whereas the College woos covens and its advocates are often apologists for them and Reachmen.

Hammerfell

The Synod is more popular in Forebear cities than the Mages Guild ever was. Crowns consider it to be subversive. The College of Whispers has virtually no open support, but it's there underground.

Skyrim

The Synod is seen as over bearing and Talos worshipers particularly despise it for not only abandoning him, but leading the way in his removal from Imperial orthodoxy. The College of Whispers represents the worst stereotypes of mages to them and has no more popularity. As such, most aspiring mages turn to traditional court wizards or the College of Winterhold instead.

Aldmeri Dominion

For diplomatic reasons since the White Gold Concordat, the Synod is allowed a token presence. The College of Whispers is given equal treatment, which is more than what they have Cyrodiil. This is because the Thalmor want both organisations in plain sight and both to be equally strong; as they fight against each other, they remain equally insignificant.

Morrowind and Black Marsh

Here, the Synod has virtually no cultural footholds and is distrusted by the authorities. The College of Whispers has made some in-roads with its cultural neutrality, but is mostly dependent on friendly native movements. For example, some young Telvanni are interested in working with them. They're the ones couldn't get an apprenticeship with a wizard-lord, but then most aspiring Telvanni fall into that category.

I could see that in Elsweyr, but in a more calm, cosy and genial style. More cushions, tea and cakes before the claws and throwing knives come into play.

Can't speak for Mage, but there's a pretty significant different between mages in The Witcher and TES. Particularly, most everyone has the capacity to learn magic in TES, while The Witcher has mages be their own class of people who has to be taken away to be trained, and are feared because their abilities are powerful and abnormal. While in TES, a mage stands shoulder to shoulder with a warrior and rogue in terms of being able to accomplish things, and they've had places to learn all over the place. There's more defenses against mages in TES, too.

I think that kinda skews the relationship between mages and politics in TES. Not that interesting things can't happen when they intermingle, but that's it's less unique as similar things can happen with other classes of people intermingling with politics (knightly orders, religious organizations, etc).

I rather like the whole "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." trope that comes with being an overpowered minority and that sort of fit the old game mechanics in which magicka potential was mostly an accident of birth.

Now if anybody can learn magic, what could be interesting is the barriers that prevent most of them from doing so. That's why the Mages Guild was founded. Mages in TES can have a sort of elitism that wouldn't make sense in The Witcher. If anybody can learn magic, in theory, everyone could learn magic. Some characters would think that's good and others wouldn't.

Of course, the developers could just take the approach where the characters know the same magic regardless of which magical institutions exist or not.

Problem. Magic as a learning institution can play to a (very small) degree of magical intrigue, but, its not an issue to grasp by any means. Magic at its most base is easy enough to teach to children in a seemingly reasonable pace. It depends solely on the context of the area we're participating in. Magic in Tamriel, even with the Mages Guild effectively imploding, is still not difficult to grasp. The only real limiting factors are cultural atmosphere, desire and capacity to learn, and/or a gross amount of cash to throw at people. That's really about it.

Depends entirely who we are talking about. Cultural practiced magic, like the Nordic clever craft, the Ra'Ga nomads that run around purifying ruins, and whatever it is the Argonians do...likely don't have this problem. The only real barriers are likely socio-economic ones, or are already heavily prejudiced against magic to begin with. The Altmer tend to have a rigid class system for example, and those that actually learn magic and can branch out, as opposed to learning anything to do exclusively with their job. The Niben meanwhile supposedly has a bit of a Magocracy going on, with it having a pretty long list of family lines that go on to become Battlemages.

Never implied in lore or game texts. Even at that, this seemed to only be attributed to our characters in the CC, and didn't exist elsewhere in the game world. Based on what we know, the Mages Guild was basically created to try and completely avert the problem of cloistered magical groups hoarding everything to itself, and making magical learning easy to access for those that have the desire to learn.

Going to what you said about the Synod...I don't see them operating anywhere outside of Cyrodiil and maybe Elsweyr on a wide base. Hammerfell is heavily prejudiced against magic (for completely different reasons), and already has a magical learning utopia: Elinhir, The City of Mages. Black Marsh likely has its own cultural practices, and Cyrodrillic government never really managed to take root effectively there. The Altmer have seemingly regressed, and real magic is likely reserved for the social elite. Valenwood...could, I guess, but I see any game running with them would likely go more for a animalistic form of magic. So, your best bet is Highrock...which is uncertain at best. Its entirely possible that Highrock has a plethora of magical Colleges dotted throughout it. I can see the court mages having some sort of wacky conclave, that's about it.

In the Witcher-verse, magic tends to take the sort of old school approach in that its mages are few in number, but ludicrously powerful. Most mages in TES are very much not the case, and the ones that are more powerful then what the Witcher-verse can muster tend to completely distance themselves from the affairs of the mortal world. Trying to apply how magic is seen or utilized in Tamriel in broad strokes is very difficult, because of how its practiced all throughout the setting is different. It comes down to a basis that ultimately comes down to the individual, as opposed to occupying a niche that you're in from birth. Much, much harder to talk about at that point.

Nah, Skyrim had plenty of politics, I just wish it was implemented in a somewhat more...detailed style.

Like less black and white groups, and more depth with the leaders of these groups and factions. The Stormcloak and Imperial questline had a lot of this, and from a story standpoint, it was okay. I wish we had more dialogue and more moments like the Season Unending quest, but both factions had good arguable points. Ulfric was a realistic (if not a bit dramatic) and believable character who I thought was generally well done and came off as an interesting nationalist who could easily be seen as either being in the right or as being too much of an extremist. I only wish we got someone as memorable as him on the Imperial faction. The political storyline I think they need to detail and fix up would be the Thalmor story going on at the moment. The Thalmor come off as Disney level bad guys with no redeeming qualities and an overly cartoony behavior. I can understand the smugness as they're an Altmer faction, but there seems to be no cracks of good intentions coming off from any of the characters we met from the Thalmor (unless I'm forgetting someone) or from the Thalmor in general. I think it would be extremely interesting to see a more developed sympathetic side from the Thalmor that isn't just boring evil.

I'm not expecting them to be improving in this area any time soon, but I'd think it would be really nice to see the political plots of later Elder scrolls games be less objective in what's good and bad.