Hero of Kvatch returning

Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:19 pm

We all know that Sheogorath, as of now, is the Hero of Kvatch, but is he really? Is any piece of the man he once was still in those milky white eyes? Is it possible he could return, or will he be the crazy old coot we know and love?

"You know me. You just don't know it."

"But I just sa-"


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Jennifer May
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Post » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:38 am

I have never believed for a second that Sheogorath was the Hero of Kvatch. I've always thought he was pulling our leg. Sheogorath is a trickster by nature and until I am given proof about his claims I will not take his word for anything, including his claim that he was the Hero of Kvatch.

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Joe Alvarado
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:05 pm

You know, I was there for that whole sordid affair. Butterflies, blood, a Fox, a severed head... Oh, and the cheese! To die for.* - Sheogorath

*Speculation Starting* *Massive Spoilers* *Don't Read if You haven't played Oblivion and wish to*

At the end of Oblivion the Hero of Kvatch would almost certainly be a broken man, one of if not his closest friends Martin had perished right before his own eyes, depending on factions chosen many of the friends he makes in them would perish, or irrevocably change, going into the shivering isles was most likely a sucide run, one last attempt at heroism, and to join Martin. When he becomes Sheo and thus becomes immortal due to Mantling he would likely crack, create a new persona and hide behind it - in a sence the hero would be hiding, sleeping, perhaps even dead and where he stood now stands only Sheogorath Daedric Prince of Madness.

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Kayleigh Williams
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:14 pm

The Hero of Kvatch is possibly the Madgod. Sheogorath's dialogue in Skyrim suggests they are the same entity, but there is still enough ambiguity to cast reasonable doubt. He says he was there for "the whole sordid affair", but he never says anything about being directly involved. Then there is also the Q&A with Haskill for Elder Scrolls Online to consider. In any case, the time for the Hero of Kvatch/Champion of Cyrodiil--just like all of the other Heroes in TES--has come and gone.


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Juanita Hernandez
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:08 pm

I don't believe that the CoC is Sheo exactly, but rather that the CoC is fading out of existence and Sheo is fading in over-top of them.

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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:49 pm

Shivering Isles expansion for Oblivion.

If the CoC/Hero of Kvatch didn't complete it (and thereby mantled Sheogorath, becoming him in the process), then who did?

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Tanika O'Connell
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:08 pm

Well, you don't have to be the Champion of Cyrodiil/Hero of Kvatch to complete the questline. Also, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlain_Haskill_Answers_Your_Questions.

Still doesn't mean that Sheo in Skyrim absolutely wasn't the CoC/HoK, but there is enough reason to believe that it wasn't. It is ol' Uncle Sheo, after all.

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Louise Dennis
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:11 pm

To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Sheogorath was and wasn't the CoC at the same time. 'Cuz giving the middle finger to "logic" is part of Sheo's sphere.

Of course, if the CoC didn't turn into Sheogorath, that means the Greymarch was never truly stopped as the Jyggalyg identity was never actually seperated from the Sheogorath personality. And I'm pretty sure that Sheogorath wouldn't be willing to keep up the "prince of lifeless order" shtick unless he was absolutely required, considering that it's literally his polar opposite. It'd be like Molag Bal willingly turning into the prime example of a storybook Paladin in all its glory.

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Nick Pryce
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:28 pm

I object with this:


I was really disappointed how they resolve Haskill's "mystery" in the ESO interview by making him into... a failure? A remnant of some failed mantler. It really ruins his whole charm of being something that showed Oblivion is more than just a Shadow of Mundus (more than the repetitive nature of Kings, Crowns and Rebels...)

So yeah, despite how everyone say Arden Sul theory is canon, therefore ignoring the expansion and what the Interviews state clearly or really twist the interpretation (seriously, the only excuse people come up against Jyggalag, Haskill and Dyus is that they were lying, a trickster, or unreliable... where the tale of Arden Sul happens to be truthful despite the discrepancy made by Zealots, Heretics and Madmens...), I'll just say that Arden Sul WAS the case of SOME if not all previous Greymarch where a champion rose up to try "weather the storm" (not defeat it, mind you), but it cannot be the same for OUR case.

The Arden Sul doesn't really deny or debunk if the HoK/CoC/some random schmuck managed to break the Greymarch, because the last Greymarch was a different case compare to all previous ones. So yeah, there's still ambiguity in the fate of Sheogorath.

For me, I really like the idea of the Twins (Sheogorath and Jyggalag) separating. Like Sheogorath is a Trickster, as everyone says, but for some reasons it boggles people's mind at the idea of Sheogorath FINALLY managed to flip the bird to all Sixteen Princes (and the cosmos) in separating his existence and not dancing to the tune of the Aurbis, no longer the cage or prison to house his brother, and of course, managed to steal the Divine's champion for his own gain (because that is the saltiest move to do against Nirn in stealing its savior). But no, no, he's a trickster in tricking the mortal mind. Narrative wise, I prefer the former since it fits the image of a DANGEROUS mad Daedric Prince... while the latter is just petty meh.

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Lucky Boy
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:35 pm

My hero is dead as disco. Being in Morrowind during Red Year will do that to you. Now if my Listener returned from the Isles, hoo boy, that's gonna be a problem...

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Naomi Lastname
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:11 am

CoC is dead, absorbed completely by Sheogorath. They're gone, forever.
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Allison Sizemore
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Post » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:33 am

That's not how mantling work but okay then...
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JaNnatul Naimah
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:19 pm

It's explicitly stated by Haskill that that's what'll eventually happen to the CoC. He/she entirely becomes Sheogorath over time.
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Margarita Diaz
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:31 pm

Yeah, I know that. I just disagree with completely gone thing. They are a part Sheogorath for better or worse and AFAIK mantling seems more A + B = AB. Not complete erasure.
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:48 pm

I'd argue that you're not simply mantling Sheogorath, but truly becoming him. And since Sheo's more the idea of madness rather than the god of madness, eventually the Hero of Kvatch / Champion of Cyrodiil simply won't exist anymore because the things they represent aren't part of Sheo's sphere. Sheogorath is madness and creativity, but he's not heroism or martial skill, so those aspects will eventually fade away.

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Laura Tempel
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Post » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:32 am

This why I've only done the SI questline once with a COC. I don't want to be erased. I've done the questline many times with non COC's. Those I don't care about much.

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Charlie Sarson
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:32 pm

That's the thought that get pass around, but it's a very black and white definition of madness. Heroism, courage, or whatever that random schmuck present can easily be just a trace of madness. Bravery itself is defying the logic of fleeing, acknowledging fear yet denying it to keep one going. Of course, it could count as stupidity as well, not out of the realm of madness since mad fools exist. Then there's the fact... berserkers exist, as well as apathetic murderers and mages, they easily fall under the madness spectrum except they are high functioning members of the public. Heroism is... just a term mortal use to justify an action. And really, I've been asking every time. What is madness in the eyes of the god? With mortals it's easy, it's just a label one use for those they can't understand. But with gods? Well, we could go on about the nature of Sheogorath without reaching a conclusion.

As for becoming him... I'm just gonna stick to what we know in definite what mantling does. Not... whatever the whole becoming him somehow leading to erasure. Sheogorath being a god or idea of madness is no different to Lorkhan being a god as well the idea of Freedom (both, by no rights should exist since one is a missing god, the other is a freak of nature), so I don't understand the sudden exception or the need for complete erasure.

Besides... what makes you think a god who once dream of freedom and mortality not part of madness, after all the idea itself is ridiculed and laughed at amongst the daedra ;)

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Raymond J. Ramirez
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Post » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:14 pm

I don't think the CoC mantled Sheogorath at all. My take is rather that Sheogorath, along with the other et'Ada, represents an idea. To truly kill or destroy Sheogorath, you would need to erase the idea of madness itself from the minds of every entity in existence, along with all memory of Sheogorath. Since that never happened, Sheogorath will simply reform after seemingly being destroyed. Once the space that Sheogorath was occupying was no longer available, now being occupied by Jyggalag, he needed to reform elsewhere. The CoC simply provided that space, and made the transition easier by sharing aspects, being rather mad themself. If Haskill was a previous attempt, then the reason Sheo didn't reform on him was because Haskill failed to break the curse so once the space Jyggalag was occupying became available again, that's where Sheo appeared. In this interpretation, the curse simply forces Sheogorath and Jyggalag to occupy the same space, with Sheogorath being dominant. They couldn't simply erase Jyggalag because that would require eliminating all trace of order and all memory of him, hence why he gets to appear every once in a while, essentially being a loophole that the Princes were forced to add in due to the laws of physics; the conservation of concepts rather than the conservation of matter and energy.

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Ezekiel Macallister
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