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Yes, but she was talking about mainstream Dibella worshippers, not crazies in a cave.

But Dibella has many various cults dedicated to her.

But. but. so what. They still follow her teachings.

And funny you should bring up Talos. Don't even try to call him a paragon of virtue.

Don't even try to call The Arcturian Heresy a reliable source of information.

I see your pigheadedness and raise you source diversity.

Even orthodox sources admit that Talos murdered the neutral dynasties of Tamriel for political convenience. It pissed off his archmage enough for betrayal, I believe.

I see your pigheadedness as well.

And exactly what orthodox sources are you referring to?

You mean every one regarding Talos not labeled 'Arcturian Heresy?'

Any actual source?

Yes, and I'm not going to find it for you, if that's what your angling for.

I'd like to see this too. This should be interesting.

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsod/numidium.shtml

The official Daggerfall story for one, where it's openly accepted Tiber Septim killed off the neutral families, which prompted Arctus to betray him.

lol, visit a Temple of Dibella in Daggerfall. The House of Earthly Delights in Suran is quite tame by comparison, and the ladies (and men!) there are most likely old fashioned "temple prosttutes". That, or they're constantly having Betazoid (sp?) weddings.

I think http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b055_lightdark.shtml sheds some light on the moral underpinnings of the Elder Scrolls universe. We could describe it as an Order/Chaos universe as opposed to a Good/Evil universe, but even that is inadequate. The "Dark" being described in that book (Padhomay? Sithis?) could, possibly, be considered the "Devil," but there are two problems with that. First off, it is a vast oversimplification. Secondly, I do not consider "The Devil" to be the evil counterpart in an equally matched duality, but rather simply a creation defying its creator (if such an absurdity is, indeed, possible). "The Dark" is considerably greater than that, but without the Dark, there could be no Gray... and that is us.

There's no need to call me a [censored].

As long as there were other royal families not loyal to him, there ran the risk of his dynasty getting killed off, and no more Dragonfires bliviongate: (Even if the usurper could wear the amulet, they may not have actually lit the dragonfires). But that's with the assumption that his actions were a result of his vision in Sancre Tor.

I've never played Daggerfall, so I wouldn't know. At the same time, I also said that worshippers do not define their deity. And in Oblivion, the Great Chapel of Dibella didn't seem to have any of that. (I know Oblivion is somewhat lacking in lore, but given its critical role of the story in KoTN, I think it suffices here).

Oblivion is somewhat lacking in... quite a few things. If they'd actually put any thought into the Imperial religion, I highly doubt all the chapels would have been replicas of each other. Rather, I'd have had them serving a function other than "knock-off of a cathedral". For example, the Julianos place would've been a library or something, Mara would likely house orphans or something, Zenithar could possibly be a sort of grand crafts hall, etc. The only one in Oblivion that was actually any good was Kynareth. :shifty:

And if you hadnt noticed, Dibella's favored protector, the Dragon's mighty soldier, was no saint either.

A bloodstained murderer really. bBloodstained-crazy-future-man-elf-murderer.



And the bolsheviks couldn't have a successful take-over had Alexander and his family been left alive. stop trying to justify blatant murder. whether he had toor not makes no difference.

Hircines favored ones a vicious beasts. They are not evil, they just dowhat theyre programed to upon changing into their divine form. Does that make them evil? that they'll kill to survive?

Orcs worship maluach, and he is the patron of vengeance. does that make them evil, or a negative aspect of their master, that they seek to avenge their master's and theirs' own perversion by Boethia?

Pelinal was a not a murderer, he was a mad soldier fighting to destroy those that had enslaved his kin.


First, the Romanovs were already crushed; they had lost all of their power. The Bolsheviks killed them some time after they had been deposed.

Second, don't undermine divine inspiration and the part it had in Tiber's rise to Emperor; I'm convinced that the vision in Sancre Tor was what inspired him to conquer Tamriel. Besides, the Talos Shrine does say to fight evil in all its forms.

Third, I never said that all of the daedra's spheres was "evil". I specifically said that they are not restricted to evil concepts.

Pelinal is still a murderer from the Ayleids' point of view.

Pelinal most definately was a murderer. The Ayleids were horrible, yes, but that doesn't justify Pelinal. I am partially descended from slaves brought from Africa by Europeans. Does that justify me to murder every white person I see? Does that justify my ancestors to murder every white person they see. Pelinal commited attempted genocide against a people. He was a murderer.

So does Almalexia's shrine. And Dagoth Ur believed that Talos was evil. Yes, Tiber Septim was divine, and maybe inspired by the Divines. But those Divines may also be murderers and ursurpers themselves


And evil concepts are restricted to Daedra.

But it does justify armed slave uprising. Like the one Pelinal was a pert of. He was a soldier who fought in war. He fought and destroyed the enemy in warfare. And he did not commit genocide; a number of Ayleid city-states continued until much later. Not to mention that he was insane.


I don't remember any shrine to Almalexia that when worshipped, gives you a message from the Lady herself to fight evil in all its forms. And for all her flaws, she did a lot for Morrowind and its people before she went crazy. As for Dagoth Ur, he was insane.

From "Song of Pelinal"





Sounds like genocide to me. It doesn't matter if he was insane or not, he still commited genocide.
And the Divines may be be considerd "evil" as well, for allowing such a mad genocidal lunatic loose upon Nirn.


And if Dagoth Ur and Pelinal are neutral because they are insane, it can also be argued that Sheogorath is neutral as well.


Last, I think that most of the gods in the TES World are neutral.
Just look at the Aedra for example. Time, Life and Death, Craftsmanship, Scholarship, war, Air. These all seem like neutral concepts to me.
Same goes for the Deadra. To me, Mehrunes Dagon, Boethiah, Hircine, Malacath, Namira, Meridia Nocturnal, Periyite are all neutral.

Total war, not genocide. He destroyed enemies in warfare. These weren't innocent towns; these were Ayleid cities inhabited by a people who were fighting to destroy and/or enslave the Nedes. General Sherman wasn't committing genocide when he sacked Atlanta.

And for acts committed while mad, I believe the term is "not guilty by reason of insanity".

Does a war justify killing innocents? The small Ayleid children who were to young to even understand the very concept of war were killed by Pelinal as well.

And About the madness: Does this mean that Sheogorath and people like Hannibal Lector are not evil?

Its not like innocents didn't die when the USAF and RAF bombed Nazi Germany. If they didn't, then the real genocide would have gone on far longer (Looks like Godwin's Law kicked in). So yes, killing of innocents can be justified. Although I doubt Pelinal destroyed entire cities single-handedly, or else he wouldn't have gotten captured and evicerated after killing Umaril.

And yes, Sheogorath is not evil. He's just insane.

Can be justified when? When you're on the winning side??? Winners = Good, Losers = Evil: Just look at the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, that's the way history works...

He wrought destruction from Narlemae all the way to Celediil, and erased those lands from the maps of Elves and Men, and all things in them, and Perrif was forced to make sacrifice to the Gods to keep them from leaving the earth in their disgust... and Kyne had to send her rain to wash the blood from the villages and forts that no longer flew Ayleid banners... When those soldiers who heard him say this stared blankly, he laughed and swung his sword, running into the rain of Kyne to slaughter their Ayleid captives... where whole swaths of lands were devoured in divine rampage to become Voidhttp://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.shtml

Sounds like destroying entire cities to me...