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Now, I know Vivec's all big on wordplay, so I figured it'd be best to ask this: Since Vivec's power is almost entirely energy leeched from somewhere else, out of an artifact of a god's dismembered corpse, not even a god itself, is he a god? Since it's not his power and once he's cut off from the power, which is not his anyway, he slowly becomes mortal and would someday (or very soon after if you play like me) die.

So the question I ask is, is he a god?

Yes he is god.

Semantics and blood. That's Vivec in a phrase for you.

Okay, and short of that CHIM [censored] is there any reason why?

It's a popular myth that Vivec and the others just ascended by lots and lots of uber energy zapping out of a heart. They did it the only way you can: mythopeia. They just cheated as they manipulated it with the tools. See Allurleirah's post in the made-up word thread.

Though, you've gotta admit that is far more digestable.

Try attempting to explain "apotheosis via transmutable, mythopoeic manipulation" at the dinner table to your friends whilst trying to convince them to buy Morrowind...

If you want a debate on what it is to be a god, there's currently a running thread on the subject http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=840782.
The answer I'd pose for this particular discourse is only valid up through Morrowind(since you don't want to hear about Chim): Yes, Vivec was a god; Yes, Vivec was not a god at a few points; No, Vivec is not a god. For an actual answer, why not just ask Vivec?:

"Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and I gained our divine powers from the Heart of Lorkhan. And now we no longer have access to the Heart, so we must lose our divinity. I have always worn my divinity lightly -- fundamentally, I am not at all a serious person -- and I will not miss it."--Vivec

"But death comes to all mortals -- and we are all mortal now."--Vivec

"Without the power of the Heart, our divine powers diminish. Our days as gods are numbered."--Vivec

"Without the Heart, our divine powers must diminish. She takes her divinity very seriously, and the loss weighs heavily on her.
Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones...--Vivec

So there, Vivec came right out and said he's no longer a god way back in Morrowind. Would Vivec lie, or perhaps not tell the whole truth? The moon is still in the sky [of a mythopoeic world where a god gained power through banging on the Heart of the world with myth[opoeic] altering tools, creating more than just an excess of power to svck up], which means his people still love him, which means [NUMINIT]...

I'll see if you can fill in the blank, with some help:

"When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'
Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'"http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#33

"It has been theorized that gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship...http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/gods_worship.shtml

Edit: I found another quote:

"Why did I try to kill you? Because you threatened the faith of my followers, and I needed their faith to hold back the darkness."--Vivec

Digestible... maybe. But it doesn't make sense if you think about it for more than a second. If I go stick my hand in a massive power outlet, what is supposed to happen? Fantasy readers are far too willing to look at a strange device and just accept the explanation that 'it's magical' and that anything it does in unsurprising and possible. ES goes deeper than that sometimes. They'll tell you WHY the Dunmer have grey skin and red eyes, not just that they do.

Agreed there.

But, they were mostly Oblivion players anyway.

...What does [NUMINIT] mean again? That's always confused me...

It's only used once in a text, and it appears to be a word that has been "censored" from the spore dream, whether for safety, because it's untranslatable, or because it conflicts with present reality.

Now it's just used as another campy joke.

So it has no connection with the word SITHISIT?

I have no idea what that entire passage means (with SITHSIT) but they are very different sources.

That other topic is getting silly. So I'll use this one to explain the subject as coherently as possible.

I spoke in that other topic about how the dictionary definition of gods isn't terribly good. For the dictionary, a god is about having powers and being worshipped. That covers most of them, but what do we make of gods in religions that never exhibit any supernatural powers? Or godkings, like the pharaohs?

Mircea Eliade is a religious historian, and proposed that religious is founded on the sharp distinction between the Sacred and the Profane. And in that case, gods aren't gods because of what they do, but because they are part of the category, or possess that numinous quality, we call the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierophany. The Tribunal would be demigods in that they participate both in the Sacred and Profane worlds.

There's more theory to it, in that the Sacred forms the absolute and fixed reference for impermanent man. And I mean reference in the sense a compass point is a fixed and absolute reference point. Profane life only assumes reality by its associations with Sacred. One example Eliade gives in his book is of a pole that a nomadic tribe carried wherever they went, which is a sort of Axis Mundi by which they can remain connected with the Sacred. But I don't think I have to go into much more detail, nor do I really want to, considering I'm at work and the boss might get annoyed that I'm discussing religious theory instead of doing my job.

I know you can't see me, but I'm scratching my head. So wait, how again does the sacred relate to godhood, in simple terms that even I would understand? If I understand what you're saying, then you and I have inverse opinions in that most things considered "sacred" are considered so because of the diety they are related to, not the other way around.

So... Vivec DID (try to, at least) kill Lord Neravar?
Im confused now....

There is no chicken-egg dichotomy. Whether being sacred makes a god or whether a god makes things sacred isn't really an issue. In the simplest terms, a god is a sacred thing. There is the Profane; transient every day life. There is the Sacred, the reality that is true and set apart. The profane and sacred have as sharp a distinction as earth and sky. They are different planes of existence. A being which is sacred is a deity. Profane life takes on value only by emulating the models set by the sacred, typically by these deities, as it's they who found the structure and purpose of the universe, or give meaning to what would otherwise have none.

In TES, there is a distinction between Mundus, the mortal realm and Aetherius, Oblivion and the God-planes. They are set apart. The spheres of aedra and daedra represent forces, emotions and ideas, and they are expressions of enshrined values. No matter how human their appearance, they're as fundamentally different to us in a way that, say, another race isn't, because of the meaning and feeling they inspire. In these terms, Vehk is an appearance of the sacred into the profane.

An Axis Mundi is a connection from the profane world to the sacred. It also acts as a sort of compass point. "There lies the sacred and we should orient ourselves towards that." The nomads I talked about carried it with them, so they were always connected. Most of the time it's fixed. It could be a tree, like Yggdrasil. It could be a mountian, like mount Olympus. It could be an object, like the ka'aba or the Christian cross. It could be a building, like a pyramid. It could be a tower, like... yes, like those. The Axis Mundi is sometimes called the Center of the World. This is also what Vehk means when he says "The Sharmat sleeps at the center. He cannot bear to see it removed, the world of reference." and "There is no true symbolism of the center. The Sharmat will believe there is. He will feel that he can cause years of exuberance from sitting in the sacred, when really no one can leave that state and cause anything more but strife." Vehk is a demigod and dwells in both the profane and the sacred worlds, blurring these two distinctions, so presumably is his own reference point.

For more info, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Sacred_and_profane


He's speaking to the Nerevarine, not Lord Nerevar. But he did kill Lord Nerevar, yes, both hiding a message in the Sermons and explaining it openly at the Trial of Vivec. There are other threads exploring that.

In my little world, The Nerevarine is basically the same dude as Lord Nerevar anyway. Yes, im that ignorant of the facts

But, what will happen if (when) Vivec dies. Will that prison just crash?

Mythopoea is not concerned with such trivialities. What is important, is that when people STOP LOVING vivec, THEN the giant turd will hit the fan.

In the Sermons, it is said it will stay for as long as the people will love him. Belief will probably regulate it. Otherwise, it may very well crash into Vivec city with all of its frozen momentum.

Think we could leave the Adoring Fan underneath it? Thank god for Morroblivion

So... even if he died... and the people loved him still... it'd would stay up?
I dont see that happening. Love is a strong emotion, but i doubt it could keep that thing up

The world is only real, because you believe it is. You believe what your eyes see, but what if what they see is not real? What if you dont really have eyes at all?


(This statement brought to you by the Dwemer temple of false thinking.)

I believe in alot of stuff, doesnt mean its real
And ive never believed my eyes. They're conspiring against me....

And yet you disbelieve the power of one of the singularly most powerful spiritual forces in existence, in a world of myth and magic???

I would say the answer is yes and no.Yes,because he has divine powers and such.No,in the sense of his birth,he was not born a god.But became one for a short time;(in god terms).