I shoot an evil guy, take out his mines and look in his trailer, and find that I will LOSE KARMA for stealing his things?

Really... kill him... Karma fine.

Steal an evil dead guys stuff... Oh no! that's too much you bastard!

Seriously?

It is stupid. I was a little upset when I first encountered this mechanic (or lack of).

Would have been nice if they could trigger the stuff as free game if the "owners" were killed.

Also annoying is bad karma for "stealing" from abandoned places. Though I haven't seen many of those yet.

We were discussing this earlier...

Firstly, I assume by "evil", you mean someone who attacked you on sight, unprovoked, right? Well the thing is this. You killed him and lost no karma, because in reality, you just defended yourself. However. Don't see the dead enemy as a "treasure chest" or "reward" for your kill, because taking his things (yes, I understand there's a philosophical question here of whether or not the dead can own anything), is, essentially, grave-robbing. It is desecration of the deceased (picking the pockets of the dead)

This is why you lost Karma. Be he your enemy or not, you are taking his possessions.

The mentality you probably had was "If you attack me and I kill you, I now own all your possessions", but as in the real world, this does not hold true. If you got mugged, and you killed him in defense, would you be allowed to take his Rolex watch?

The cultural, ethical, and philosophical exploration of theft is for the classroom where I would counter with stealing isn't evil at all since primitive cultures don't even have a concept of ownership so there is no concept of theft and therefor theft is not evil. Theft is chaotic it is against cultural laws not basic laws of humanity, and since the 'culture' of FO:NV is still in flux the idea of ownership is still left to those that will make that culture's mores to decide, and as such cannot be evil or even chaotic yet as they do not even exist.

Or at least that is what I would say in a class. Since this is a game, I will say it svcks, is not fun, and should have remained as it was in the original.

Actually, theft here is simply the act of a crime (the ethical, moral and philosophical nature comes into play because it's being performed on the deceased)

Short end of the stick is, karma is punishing you for the theft. You ARE stealing when it comes down to it. Be it an enemy whom is alive and you successfully pick his pocket, or if you see his possessions as the "spoils of war", feeling you are entitled to them after being the direct cause of his ceasing to exist.

Karma is closer tied in this game to criminal activity than it is morale choices (cause we all have different morales). Attack an innocent (a crime in and of itself) and you lose karma in this game. Steal (innocent or enemy) and you lose karma in this game.

I'm not sure why this bugs you, it's all your choice to lose/gain karma as you want. I'm not even sure of the overall effect it has. Who knows, a very high "bad" karma may have results that benefit you in the end.

Two members of a faction attacked me. I defended myself against them and won. In my Pip-Boy, it said that faction was still neutral. I don't know why yet but I'm sure we'll learn why down the road. Check your Pip-Boy under General, I think it was.

Actually, I am wondering why you are responding to this thread, If you like it this way? You don't have an issue with it go play the game.

When I this first happened to me when I met some of those Powder Gangers for the first time I was a bit confused because this mechanic wasn't in FO3. After thinking about it though, it makes perfect sense. Just because they are dead doesn't mean their possessions weren't their possessions. Now for the sake of continuity, I'm wondering why it is perfectly fine to loot the body.

However, this is Post-Apocalyptic America...you do what you need to survive. Also, why let perfectly good items go to waste, the owner doesn't have any use for them anymore, so if you don't take it some enemy will AND he'll use it against you. Fair Game in my opinion.

From a purely technical perspective, it's probably because it's too much of a hassle to toggle the ownership when the owner dies.

Seems to me that if you are in bad standing with a faction, looting their stuff should not be considered stealing.

Exactly, why can we loot anything? If you are trying to be a good example to the wasteland, shouldn't you not loot anything red or not? It's stealing. Also, why are we shooting everything? The enemies are just mal-adjusted. Obsidian should have added the psychology skill and we could have helped them through their mental demons with months of therapy and returned them to be productive citizens of the aftermath.

And what about the animals, why do we kill them? They are only looking for food. We should be able to craft plant free/animal product free foodstuffs and feed all of the hungry and angry animals so they stop attacking everyone.

BS.

they are evil, we killed them, we loot them, we take anything they had in their huts to help us defeat their evil comrades, end of issue and it's not a Karmic problem.

Bottom line its a svck up stance to think Obsidian changed it for the better when Bethesda got it right the first time.

Stealing is stealing (even Robin Hood was a thief) :shrug:

A neighborhood kid passed by some time ago and wanted to pet my friends dog; she said it would not be a good idea ~he asked what he (the dog) would do to him. (as if to weigh the cost)
Later this child (must have been 6 or 7) casually mentioned that it was okay for him to steal (his mother had told him so). This kid had been taught that it was justified to steal from anyone that was rude or that he didn't like.
*So is it really okay to steal from those that you don't like, or that don't like you?

I'm not sure if it is better or not. From where I stand I killed the fool/s and I WILL take/loot/steal their stuff, karma be damned. Heck, I've got one playthrough planned where I will kill everything that says anything nice to me. Why? Because it would be foolish in certain regards to be nice to people in an evironment such as the Wasteland. I will also have one for those that plan on being snarky or otherwise rude.

I can see though how it could happen from a philosophical standpoint, but like I think someone has mentioned here on this thread; from a programming aspect it might just be a pain to toggle ownership after you kill something. Either way I recall reading something saying karma doesn't really mean much in NV, but reputation does.

I play through multiple times, I always start off by being the good guy. I don't want to pass up tons of dead person gear because some wrong thinking game designer at Obsidian thinks its more "goodly" to let equipment rot than be turned against their evil owners.

When I play through as an evil guy, I won't have a problem with this, obviously.

Oh my god, you guys are looking WAY to far into this.

I dont't have the game yet but that sounds stupid. Hasn't Obsidion heard the quote " To the victor goes the spoils"? I mean say this was real life here. ( I know its not im just proving a point.) In an enviroment like that, if a man with a weaker gun then me or dosnt have not enough food to survive. He kills me and I am loaded with supplies. Wouldn't he take my stuff just so he survives in the horrors of the waste. If this was in modern times it would be unacceptible to loot things off dead bodies, but its the freaking nuclear holocaust. I would take what I needed.

True. (But good karma comes from bludgeoning your enemy and stealing his goods?)

Ok, now this is getting insane.

I go into the correctional facility as myself in leather armor. They all attack me and when I kill them I get no karma, no problem haven't been getting so far anyway.

Then I remember I have faction armor and put it on, go back in and they are like Hey, nice to see ya prisoner welcome to the gang, no questiones asked. So after a few minutes of getting bored with this I pickpocket a stick of dynamite into some gangers pocket. BOOM! and get this... I GAIN KARMA?

So killing bad guys dressed as myself I get no karma increase... dress like them and fool them into thinking I am one of them and THEN kill them, I am a hero??


This has to be a bug, I cannot think this is what Obsidian intended anymore.

(Oh not to mention all the stuff the gangers have stockpiled is red to me... hell I can't even return it to the NCR)

Not nessicarly good karma, but it shouldn't change either. Surviving isn't bad, but you shouldn't be hunted by some bounty hunter becuase you took some food (which would eventually rot) from a bandit who was planning to mug me.

Surviving usually means killing something else to allow yourself to live. (that can't be good karma, and that can't be without cost) :shrug:

I don't have anything against stealing in the game, but IMO it should always come with bad karma ~its stealing.

I think stealing from "bad guys" should only give you negative karma if you have a good reputation with their faction.

I think a handful of you are attempting to sound smart on a very simple, grade school level issue. You're failing. Fallout 3 set the standard on this issue.

This is either A. A bug or B. Bad development decisions.

Either way, it's annoying as can be and needs to be fixed asap. My question is, what effects does Karma actually play in the game?