Obviously the developers wanted to emulate the Romans with Caesar. In-game Caesar said he had access to an entire library of information which is where he gained his knowledge on the Romans to begin with. I'm going to ask; why are women and slaves treated so harshly in the Legion? Was it to make them look brutal and tough? It's the main argument against the moral ambiguity that Obsidian proclaimed so many times that they were going for. If they had followed Roman society more closely in that aspect then I don't see why most people wouldn't at least agree to the Legion being neutral moral-wise.

i kill em on sight and no questions, they just dont look cool in those stupid skirts and they throw spears at me and i hate when someone throws spears at me...

Because ancient Rome was known for being an egalitarian society in which alternate universe exactly? (And yes I have a bachelors degree in classical Roman & Greek history & archaeology).

Thing is they claim (and some people in real life believe this) to be rebuilding the world and learning from the mistakes of the past when the "mistakes of the past" first a.k.a Man's Violent Instincts was a VERY popular thing to watch in Ancient Rome...It was concisdered fun to watch christians be eaten by lions(Although I imagine it still is.)

Caeser needs to realize that he cannot try and "look to the future" because he is just going to end up with slaves forever and everything being exactly the same. At least it's obvious that NCR help a lot of people even if they do collectively abuse their "high barter skill"

It's quite obvious that the whole "Roman Empire" act was just an identifier to unite raider tribes and an excuse to murder, [censored] and pillage.

It would have been more... hmm, how can I say this without appearing to condone genocide...well, there is no way, so...

It would have been more interesting had Caesar decided to emulate the NSDAP. At least that way there would be no moral ambiguity. I understand why he didn't, because Obsidian isn't going to take that step, the backlash would be terrible had they done that.

@clever

These days it's more fun to watch christian's be eaten by atheists.

So you're saying woman were immediately made slaves in the Roman Empire and treated as less than dirt. I guess my history and Latin teachers were all wrong.
I don't remember the exact source but there was something written on the general accepted view on slaves in society. I remember reading it in a volume of The Romans Speak for Themselves

I'm not saying they were treated equally but they were damn well treated better than the slaves in the Legion.


@clever and land of the dead

Little less religion bashing, little more tolerance. Kay, thanks. I'm also not Christian so don't even go there.

The only meetings you have with the legion are forward military bases, forward meaning at the edge of their territory. It's entirely possible that the lot of "legion women" deeper into legion territory are not "immediately enslaved" and have much better lives. All you are basically seeing is military outposts on occcupied enemy territory. Of course all the women you see will be enslaved. And all the men will be dead or conscripted

That's actually a very good point. I hope we get to see more of Legion society in a DLC.

Wasn't bashing Christian's, they're free to believe what they want. Was just making a joke, relax.

When history is learned from books, one's view and knowledge of history can be obscured and lead into a certain belief of what really went on. Many history books were, and probably still are filled with propoganda and bias from multiple angles. Given, it's the Fallout universe with a 50's influence, the BS was probably pretty heavy in the books that Caesar read.

They weren't made slaves in the sense of being captured then bought and sold at a market, but they were the "property" (legally) of their father until they married and then became the "property" of their husband, were expected not to leave the house, were not allowed to possess money of their own nor have any independence whatsoever, could not go anywhere without being accompanied by their father or husband. It might not be outright slavery in the sense we immediately associate with the word in modern terms, but it was hardly an enlightened time for women.

Women did not even get an official NAME as individuals, they were named after their father - so if a man called Julius were to have 3 daughters they would be named Julia Prima, Julia Secunda, and Julia Tertia (Julius' first daughter, second daughter, and third daughter respectively).

All I am trying to say is don't make out that ancient Rome was any better than it was, because it was pretty grim for women and worse for slaves. And it doesn't surprise me any that someone in the Fallout world basing his morals on ancient Rome would be disparaging towards women and in favour of slavery and brutality.

You just took the way Greek women were treated, and said thats how Roman women were treated. Roman woman had considerably more freedoms for the time. They were the household's managers, and oversaw everything that went on in it. They could leave the house without an escort, and they were allowed to own property. While they didn't have all of the freedoms that men had, they were certainly not as bad off as you are making them out to be.

I knew I somewhat knew what I was talking about!

@Land of the dead

Yeah, sorry. I'm just used to seeing that stuff on the internet.

the problem is you are confusing roman woman with women from the peoples the romans recently "acquired" via warfare/conquest. The first historically recorded incidents of mass suicide occured when german women refused be sixual slaves of the romans. They killed themselves instead.

A wee bit ironic, but "escorts" in Roman society were actually pretty high on the social totem pole.

While CL is based on Roman society, it is an extremely bastardized version of it. Kind of like if you compare the former Soviet Bloc governments with Karl Marx's theories you see how corrupted they are. What we often associate with communism is nothing more than a brutal dictatorship. It's the same with the Legion.

Just 'cause it's based off of something doesn't mean it will emulate it exactly.

And like someone said, it's forward operating bases. So who knows.

Well it's not like I expected them to be all out Romans. I'm just wondering why Obsidian decided to go the way they did when they were shouting about morally gray factions.

Yeah, they did kinda make them fairly black and white. It also doesn't help that there are almost no Legion quests.

It does seem weird to me that Roman society was used as a template for a "morally grey" faction - the idea of wanting to take society backwards so much in time just seems doomed to failure (and not just in terms of misogyny and slavery, which were definitely issues, whatever the particulars), and was bound to be seen as the "baddie faction". The fact that everyone who isn't part of CL thinks they are awful is also a massive indicator - many think the NCR are a bit feckless - but not as roundly evil as it's counterpart. I'd have to argue that women and slaves were hardly treated as citizens with equal rights in "real" Roman times, though.

Er... no you're wrong - there are a very few examples recorded of upper class women having a bit more freedom than the average Roman housewife, as is the case in every era and every society through the ages (and ffs you think if I submitted a CV/resumé to you with the job description "household manager" I'd get any respect from you as a suitable employee? That's been the average woman's job title since the year dot) And seriously you think that I'm confused between Greeks and Romans when that's the very subject I'm writing my thesis for my doctorate about? Oh please, you're making me laugh til I choke.



They (and lets not mince words, we're talking about prosttutes) weren't high on the social totem pole, they were viewed as being 'outside' society - valued commodities for sure, but commodities nonetheless, and yes they were one of the few groups of women to have an independent income - but any society where a woman has to sell her body to achieve economic autonomy can in NO way be said to be progressive.

If they are to be the new "Romans", then, i will have to see them that way.

"The New Roman Empire shall be forged under Ceasers feet, and destroyed under mine" A.C.E (Archer Certium Erod)

This is my goal, this will be acomplished!

Mission Progress Below

I think its important to keep a couple facts in mind. We aren't playing a game set in Arizona or Texas, the "Italy" of Caesar's Legion. We are playing in the Mojave Wasteland, which is the Gaul or Carthage to Caesar's Rome. And, it was quite common for Rome to enslave it's enemies. Furthermore, the slaves we meet aren't household slaves. They are laborers working directly for the soldiers in the Legion. One can expect that slaves attached to an Army will have a decidedly less pleasant time than those serving in a peaceful city. Especially since many of these slaves are recently captured former enemies.

And, we don't really know what the Legion's treatment of women amounts to. We know that women cannot serve in the Legion. We know that the Legion has no qualms with enslaving or [censored] "foreign" women. We know that, at some level, women do no have the exact same rights as men within Legion society. Back in Arizona, women could very well possess all the rights of traditional Roman women. Or less. Or more. We just don't have the information. We do know that tribes that submit to Caesar have their women sold into marriage. I do not know if the Romans practiced this policy, but it does hint that not all Legion women are slaves.

Hopefully, we'll get to see some more of the Legion. Particularly, I'd like to see a city or region that has been held by the Legion for some time. Are there schools, theaters, and gladiators? Or does the Roman anology extend only to the practices of the military? I suspect that Caesar's fondness for books would encourage schools and theaters.

Would it really make one bit of difference at all even if the Legion treat their own women slightly better than their enemy's? Does treating a few of their own women with repect make up for the fact that they would [censored], murder, enslave and totally destory their enemies without any mercy even if they are defenceless?

I think not.

Good post, making some very good points. Personally I never want to see the Legion again, but that's my own personal beef. I get the impression that the Legion is idolising Rome in a similar and as warped a way as Mussolini did (a lot of his ideology was based on interpretations and misinterpretations of the Roman Empire) - I had family members who served with the British army in Italy during WWII - so maybe it's just striking a very bad chord with me in a way that some folks simply could not understand.... add slavery and crucifixions... this is not a grey area, I will side with them over my own dead body...