I didn't miss the point. He's against any kind of cinematics. I'm not. There are no other points than that, when it comes down to it. We could do this forever.

This post, in a Skyrim context I agree with.
The fact that we have the Dragonborn title rammed down our throat from the get go is jarring and not exactly conducive to a deep or meaningful experience.

How ever, if the same story was told in the manner Morrowind was told. Then It would be a very different story IMO.
This is where the storytelling falls over in Skyrim and this is what needs to be addressed. Not fancy CG'd movies.

I didn't miss the point. He's against any kind of cinematics. I'm not. There are no other points than that, when it comes down to it. We could do this forever.

So you read the first three words of his post and built your reply around that?
Because with your latest post you completely dismiss the rest of what he said.

While i completely disagree with scrapping the MQ completely (That just sounds silly) i do beleive that Bethesda need to work on the storytelling quite abit in face. I found the main quest and the faction quests to be quite unsatisfying and felt like i was being dragged through the story instead of it actually being told. It's like there's no emotion whatsoever.

All true, but does it really need videos in a game that is a video in itself, a video game? What stops it from becoming a "Sims with videos"?

If one does not want to know about the background of some of the things, why does it need to tell them in a video? And why does it need a video for those who do pick up the books?

I still do not see how "a nice touch" becomes meaningful. It will cost Bethesda a lot of money to make these videos and they will take a lot of disc space, too. If these were done with just the 3D engine then it might not even be worth watching. I have seen games that have tried this and I just end up pressing the ESC-key to get them off my screen.

There are movies that tell you a non-linear story, like what happened 6 months ago or what will happen in a week from now. The TV series LOST made this almost into an art. Yet, I do like a movie with just one linear story better if the story gets told well. The back and forth in time in some movies remind me more of a confused story teller who fails to put all the pieces together into one linear story.

Besides, I never wanted to know what happened to the Dwemer. I like the mystery around them and not knowing what happened there. I would hate to see a video about them.

There was no mystery or intrigue either. No twist or involving plots. Just this is whats happening stop it - Oh good you stopped it...

I know what he's talking about, when it comes to letting a story unfold. It's common in open world games. It's just emergent behavior with the game pieces (for lack of a better word). But that doesn't warrant taking out some cinematics. And "cinematics" doesn't mean a literal cutscene or narrative. Or "CG", in your words. It's just directing with the game engine. Some of what I'm in support of is simply getting a sense of perspective outside of what my character can see. If people don't like it, fine. I do. There's not much more to say other than voice our opinions. He isn't right, nor am I. But don't say I don't understand his other points. I do.

The problem with what you're suggesting is that TES is experienced first hand through the eyes of your character - its the whole "deal" with TES.
To have a cut scene showing something that your character can't witness would obliterate this effect.

To use an example; Mass Effect. You follow Sheppard. And watch his story unfold.
In TES, you ARE Sheppard, and you control how his story unfolds.

I found emotion in it. I could not side with the Stormcloaks. I do many of the other quests before I continue with the main quest and every time I return to the main quest does it pull me back in again. Just like the game itself when I start it and become part of the snowy, cold world that it is (in some parts).

I do find myself playing it for too long once in a while and I begin skipping parts that I should not have. It is the point where I quit and continue with it another time. One can get greedy and do quests only for the sake of finishing them, or killing and looting all in a cave only to have it cleared. I then have to use a spoon and scoop my eyeballs of the monitor.

I understand some people perceive TES in strict terms, but I'm a little more flexible on what TES is. Just like the actual creators have left room for interpretation for themselves on where to take the series for us. This is one reason why a lot of people come here and hate the game so much.. because it doesn't live up to their ideals of what TES should be. Anything could be changed though. For better or worse. There isn't that strict of a definition of what the series is.

Anyways, I'm not asking for a movie. I'd just like some aerial views, when it comes down to it. If people don't like that I want that, oh well.

That is exacly where I disagree. I think TES series needs some help in storytelling department ASAP, but I never want to "see outside my character". Fallout New Vegas did an amazing job in that regard. The only "cinematics" were at the end of the game and of it's DLCs.

For me games like TES or Fallout (the newer ones) are all about immersion, about being the hero and not someone controlling him.

But then we would be following the character and not being the character.

What your suggesting is a fundamental shift in the design of TES. Right up there with adding guns IMO.

Fundamental shift, eh. If you say so.

You know what, screw it. I'll agree! What I want is a revolution of TES. I'm here to ruin everything. And perhaps, while I'm at it, I'll eat some baby khajiits too. I'm an evil man, I know.

edit: Seriously though...

Hrmm, the display of immaturity is probably a good indicator as to why you want what you want and in its self a great advertisemant for what shouldn't be done to TES.

Oh god. Get over it. Immaturity? We're talking about a game, and I'm trying to lighten this up. It's gotten way too serious. If anything, I'm trying to be mature by not taking it so seriously.

edit: I don't mean any ill will. Lets just move on.

lol, its a thread on a forum. A debate over a topic, we've debated the issue and it seems you've run out of points to argue and moved to the "lets move on" approach.
How does one move on from an internet debate?

How to improve the storytelling in TES?

Easy.

Buy Beth's designers admission to Robert Mckee's Story seminars.

Ok, if you want me to play along. I will. Like I was saying, I was trying to lighten this up, because you're moving to points about fundamental shifts, as if an aerial view or panning is somehow equivalent to a "sky is falling" level of travesty. And you take my exchange so seriously that you call me "immature", when I'm obviously joking.. I said I'd eat baby khajiits. Khajiits aren't even real. I thought that'd be a good indicator that I'm here in good fun. And you have to go on about immaturity. If it is immaturity, I mean it in a good way.

You want me to be serious, I'll try to be. There is no "fundamental" anything about TES. 5 years from now, I'm willing to bet the series will be even more different than Morrowind than Skyrim is now. And what I observe about some of the diehard fans of older games (I'm assuming you're one of them) is that you're very keen on the first person, hardcoe simulation experience. Almost dogmatically so. To each their own, but it's something that's always puzzled me personally. I wouldn't want you guys to totally lose it, but to think it's so fundamental to the series is strange to me. It's like that other discussion about people wanting a "no helmet" toggle in the option menu. Some people are so against it, because they're diehard about how TES should simulate life or something. Some of us don't see it that way. Some people just see a good game series, but like some options. In my case about wanting some aerial panning, I'd just like appreciate the world they constructed more, in ways I can't otherwise. I'm not against the "self narrative" stuff. I like that too. Just not to the point where it must always be that way. It's just a game, man.

As for "running out of points", you're very right. The only discussion we can have about this is to simply disagree. It's all just opinion. We're not changing anything ourselves. We could go on and on about it, but it doesn't mean anything. That's why I felt like leaving.

Anyways...

Just for the record I would also add that scenery, setting and visuals is one department where Bethesda truly excels, I can't understand why they wouldn't make better use of it to enhance the storytelling by using cinematic techniques.

Nothing becomes more linnear because the camera switches perspective once in a while, nothing becomes less character driven simply because you sometimes see "outside" of your character (we have dreams, visions, prophecies, spirit journeys, ethereal forms and many possible reasonable mechanics within the framework of the TES universe to explain how such experiences could come directly to the character).

But why combine the amazing possibilities of storytelling techniques with the Bethesda trademark for art and visual detail? NO, then it wouldn't be TES...then it would be...better...and we don't want that, do we??

There is definite need to improve the storytelling aspects of TES. Cinematics -can- become a prop or padding. But if used properly, then it can make the story work better (example: the cinematic after you take the Elder Scroll back to a certain place. You get rather important information). Too many cutscenes would spoil the broth, no question. But the weak, disconnected, in some cases outright -lousy- stories that were implemented in Skyrim needed =some= help. And yes, lessons in creative writing should be considered.

There was exactly -NO- sense of urgency about the main quest. No real evidence of large numbers of dragons returning and doing what dragons do: eat and destroy. No changes in the environment....seriously; how bloody hard would it have been to have the sky alter over time, looking more and more menacing, more wrong? Have the external lighting change, making things starker, more scary? Days of sunlight becoming more and more infrequent, clouds becoming more and more dark, the land seeming to be sliding into shadow? Add a relatively simple percentage slider to the NPC AI, so that as things darken, they get more fearful? Their motion set changes, so instead of that stately walk, you get more of a scurry? The guards tend to look skyward more often, their weapons twitching? None of that would counter the sandbox aspects whatsoever, but it would have added drama to the game as time went on. It also would have kept the gameworld fresh, as things look very different in varying light patterns,.

the Civil War was....lackluster, shall we say? No urgency. No consequences. This would be an excellent place for a cinematic. Why? If you got into the CW quest, you had to have a reason, or else you would ignore it. And gamesas has significantly ballsier computer farms than any single player usually has. They can do the big battles, using their servers, any then anyone could see how it works out. You could have doubled or tripled the kinds of missions you were assigned (and to limit it, make it small squad type or single infiltrator type missions). All that would take is storage space for the cinematic.....and with the big battles safely out of reach, you could branch the questline to include a lot of the things that never saw the light of day (like -you- learn the civil war is a Thalmor plot and at least try and stop the two idiots from handing more of Tamriel to the Dominion).

They spent too much time squeezing that last drop of blood out of the 360; they made a tech demo, and it shows in coherency, or lack thereof, in the writing.

You’re never going to get a consensus on how this game should be presented and descending into name calling because of differing opinions shows a lack of maturity.

There are options between full-blown cutscenes and what we have now. Good level design should include highlighting the things the player is supposed to be looking at. Scenes in Skyrim tend to be visually flat and hard to take in. When there is dramatic lighting, it's pointless and not thought out - like a brilliant beam of light through the ceiling of a dungeon illuminating exactly nothing interesting. It's possible to lead the player's eye in 3d just as a good 2d artist leads the viewer's eye to points of interest.

The bad storytelling regarding Alduin's return is another subject entirely.