I'm considering once I get done with my Nord barbarian I'm probably going to make a female Dunmer assassin / thief / evil B***h. I've noticed going through the game so far there are very few options for playing a bad person. Obviously there's the DB and TG, which I will do, and the daedric quests, which I will do...but...then what? Imperials/Stormcloaks, Main Quest, Mage College, Companions...all seem to lean towards the goody goody side of things. Am I missing something, or are "bad" characters getting shafted?

I actually think its the other way around. Playing my first playthrough as a good hero I seem to come across way more chances to be evil in side quests and favors etc.

the college of winterhold is actually pretty much neutral

It really depends on your definition of what "evil" is. Most people only mean "evil" as "kill everything in sight"; in which case it is very easy to be "evil".

I dunno, a lot of the side quests I've run into are "go kill these bandits" type of things. Not much choice there.

My concept of evil isn't just killing people. It's screwing them over. Setting them up to fail. Extortion, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.

For many things I don't think it is Good vs Evil but more Side A vs Side B. Both the Imperials and Stormcloaks think their cause is just, and the DB has always thought they are doing the right thing.

I've found that while there are many good alternatives to evil quests (wiping out the Dark Brotherhood for example,) there are few bad alternatives to good quests, which has always been a sore point in Bethesda's quest writing. Other than going on a (limited due to forced essential status) rampage, there aren't many ways to be evil due to lack of quests or quest options to support it. At best you can be chaotic neutral.

I think there are enough chances to be the bad guy. The main quest, Companions and Mage Guild are all good in essence, but you can always take the evil approach, and kill everything in the process, break into every house you see, or pickpocket everyone (the last pickpocket perk is a lot of fun, my brother has entire towns populated by people in their underwear because he stole all their clothes). And of course, pretty much every Daedric quest is evil, alongside the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

Oh yeah, the first thing I think of when someone says "fun" is "screwing people over...."

The whole game is pretty much neutral. Its hard to play as either a very "good" or very "bad" character.

That's not evil, that is just psychotic.

Well I suppose a certain amount of psychotic behavior will go with this character, but I don't want that to be the trademark of my character.

Well yes, but I think in this game things that can really be considered evil are almost always a bit psychotic too. SPOILERS:beating priests too death or eating them alive are rather psychotic if you ask me

The real trick to playing an evil character is getting a good idea of what evil really is while realizing that all the best villains never think they are "evil".

The shortest and easiest way to define evil is to understand that, at it's core, it is really just selfishness.

Darth Vader didn't run around robbing old ladies.
Saruman didn't simply "nuke towns".
Cersei Lannister never broke into a single house.

Nearly everyting in Skyrim seems pretty much in the gray to me? There's very little that would actually make you pure good or evil. Much isn't as black and white as that, but more in the grey.

The college is neutral, the stormcloaks and the inperials are neutral, the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild are somewhat evil, and the companions aren't purely good aswell. The Daedra themselves may be mostly evil, but the quests themselves seem rather mixed. You can be the Thane in every hold, which usually involved being the good guy more or less. And the bards aren't necessarily good either.

To me it seems you need to use some inagination to decide what would be good or evil to your character, good or evil doesn't seem predefined, much like it is in reality. Since most choises offer a dilemma I often find myself considering what motives my character would have to do someting. I kind of like it that way.

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Is it?

Evil (or good) is in the eye of the beholder.

People who common opinion considers (deeply) evil can actually beleive they're acting in the common good. (or the common good of a group the beholder isn't part of or doesn't support)

I supose it's pretty hard to write "evil quests" simply because it's so damn stupid. The idea of being evil for the sake of being evil isn't really being that evil since you're only doing it to make an impression on people (which is really kind of vain). If you want to be evil, you don't do quests - you just kill people and take their stuff. The idea of being evil and having someone pay you for the sake of being evil is kind of silly to me.

Actually if you want a good example, look at Obsidian's writing in New Vegas. Not every quest's evil ending involved killing the person who gave you the quest or had you being evil, they just had the character making decisions for themselves, and some even had two that were arguably evil (ex: When directing the solar plants power, you could kill everyone at the plant, or redirect the power to a doomsday weapon you could obtain later in the game.)

Yes, it is.

When boiled down, good is basically thinking of others and how your choices impact other people. Evil is just the opposite.

Darth Vader: Whaa, the Jedi are old and stupid; they are just holding me back. It would be much easier for me to just kill everyone that opposes me rather than try and work things out.

Saruman: I don't need to listen to anyone, I am smart enough to use this Palantir and no one can corrupt me!

Cersei Lannister: Need I say more? lol

Was there much more evil in FO3 than selling a child into slavery, simply for money?

There was more chaotic evil (which would be the psychotic that everyone is attempting to avoid in this thread) in FO3, but you couldn't be neutral or lawful evil in it.

New Vegas really expanded on all of the classic role archetypes (Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Good/Neutral/Evil.) And I feel Bethesda could learn a lot from them in their quest writing.

No doubt.

My only gripe about Skyrim is that there are no real consequences for your choices. Other than that, awesome game.

"Good... bad.... I'm the guy with the gun."

Good and evil are VERY subjective.

Is it good to rob from the rich to punish them for their shameless exploitation of lesser men? Is it wrong to kill someone who is trying to wipe out your race? Your ideals? Your "family?"

Adolf Hitler didn't think he was evil, but was responsible for one of the worse atrocities in history. Followed by Stalin who killed and starved just as many.

People usually don't see themselves as "evil"...

Evil... in a comic book super villain sort of way... is more of a deliberate arch type psychotic. Very few people are evil just to be evil. And fewer people are "pure" evil. They might do evil as a means to an end, but aren't evil through and through. Even terrorists believe that what they are doing is right.

I agree with what someone pointed out. Sometimes, evil is just doing things for selfish reasons.... to get rich, to amass power, etc. It's all ego driven. The means aren't important... they are simply a way of getting from point A to point B.

In it's most basic form... evil is stepping on the rights of others to enforce your own rights... or perceived rights.

With that said... there are plenty of ways to act evil in the game. I killed the guy who wanted to bring back the Mythic Dawn. Was killing him evil? Sure. But I didn't want him to get his hands on the dagger. Did I use it? No. Why? Because I don't trust the Daedra. I figure there will be a price to pay and eventually I'll be forced to pay it.

I did make the pact with Nocturnal though. I'll find a way out of it though... or perhaps I already have by becoming a werewolf since Hirscine will mostly likely claim my soul. Who knows. Personally... I plan to live forever. Just haven't quite worked out the details.

Am I evil... some may say so. Others sing my praises for saving their towns and villages from the dragons, bandits and other things that go bump in the night.

The fact is... very few of us or our characters are archtypically good or evil. Have you ever tried to talk with the bandits to find out their grievances? Have they been forced to do this? Was their village destroyed by war and now they steal to feed their families? What's their story? Are they evil? Sure... they get wenches pregneat and cheat at cards... but...well... who hasn't.

Also... doing the companions quest... killing Silver Hand isn't exactly "good".

So... I'm not sure what type of evil you are looking for... but the game does offer alot of variety and many paths you can choose. There really isn't an option to join the "evil" side since the dragon wants to destroy the entire world.

1. Not sure about going with a good or bad character.
2. Just create something and head to Loreius Farm.
3. Find Cicero and his beloved 'mother'.
4. Realize that any side with him on it is awesome.
5. Team up with the guy.
6. Become a serial killer.

Not really.

Anakin Skywalker only became Darth Vader because he couldn't cope with the loss of loved ones. The loss of his mother, and her pitfull life, caused his soul to be vengious and receptive. He was heavily conflicted in choosing the dark side but his love for Padmé pushed him over, fearing she would die in chilbirth and believing the dark side had the power to prevent it. Darth Sidious (aka Palpatine or the emperor) spun a web which Anakin just couldn't avoid. This theme, fear for the loss of loved ones being his main incentive, continues till his very end, when he redeems himself by killing Sidious to save his son's (Luke's) life as his ultimate act. You can only say Amakin handled selfishly if you consider "love" selfish in essence. He certainly didn't hapily walk over to the dark side because he'd think it would be "easier" or because he felt "the Jedi were old and stupid and just holding him back".

Sauruman also didn't just fall to Sauron due to selfishness. He fell to the enemy because he opened his mind to the enemy. He was studiying the arts of the enemy and keeping track of the enemy through the palantir because he believed that in order to defeat the enemy mankind had to know the enemy. As the story progresses the corruptable power of Sauron was just to great for Sauruman to resist. He was however initially set on his gradual path of submission to Sauron's will because he believed he was acting in the common good.

Considering real world evil, in it's most ultimate form imho, think of Adolf Hitler. He genuinely believed he had the common interest and progression of the german people at heart. Megalomanial madness perhaps, but he didn't solely act on selfish interests.

Cersei Lannister is a good example of selfish interests yes.

So, is selfishness the essence of evel? Not really. It's a factor. But there are many factors that push people towards evel. Even love can push people to evil. The essence of evil is that it is in the eye of the beholder.

Hubris is a form of selfishness, which all these characters have in abundance.