Continuing the thread that was previously locked (exceeding 200 replies).

I don't have naything against Ulfric. Sure, he ins't perfect and I think he will be the first to admit it, but all in all I think he is a strong warrior and a potentially good leader. Even Free-Winter says he is a good leader so there must be something about him.

I wish I'd sided with him instead of Tullius. I truly regret that.

I'm now a bitter old Nord veteran who drinks away his memories with wine.

As I was saying:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Alex_Salmond,_First_Minister_of_Scotland.jpg/220px-Alex_Salmond,_First_Minister_of_Scotland.jpg, and http://images.wikia.com/elderscrolls/images/5/58/Ulfric_Civil_War2.png: same person.

I wonder if Bethesda did base the Stormcloak Rebellion on particular real world events. Would be interesting to find out.

Hitler's reaction to the treaty of versailles= Ulfrics reaction to the white-gold concordant.

I think Ulfric is a bitter, old veteran that no longer believes in the Empire. He used to, up until the Great War and the WGC, but changed after his torturing and his Empire's subsequent submission to his torturers.

He fought for Talos' Empire but then realised that it was no longer Talos' Empire.

The Mede Dynasty may be what kept the Empire going for the years after Ocato's assassination but they succeeded in nothing else.

Their legions could only stand witness to the Argonians pillaging Morrowind and to the Breto-Redguard alliance burning Orsinium. Their legions were massacred by the Thalmor during the Great War and the only reason Ulfric didn't take the whole of Skyrim was because of General Tullius' arrival.

Empire supporters must face the fact that a united Empire under weak Leadership is worse than a broad/fractured alliance under Strong Leaders.

Not really the same. ToV was imposed on Germany by it's enemies. WGC was imposed on Skyrim by their very own Emperor. It's a much greater offence.

Because comparing a Mass-murderer of Millions to a Rebel is logical

I say it again Nationalism =/= Racist Murderers.

If you say Nationalism, its the Nationalism shown in tropico 4...
And im comparing there REACTION, Hitler and Ulfric were GRUNTS AT the time.
Hitler and Ulfric created there own political party
Hitler and Ulfric both attempted to usurp there political leader.
They share may traits also, Both are excellent at charismatic with speeches

Something I noticed about the last thread was the matter of his alleged betrayal of the Way of the Voice. My opinion? Yes, he betrayed the Way of the Voice. Does it matter? Not really, the Way of the Voice is the result of a Nord loosing a war then forcing other Nords to abandon the usage of Thu'um in war. Why should using the Thu'um be a negative thing just because one Nord in the past got his feelings hurt?
He was sent there as a child and had no saying in it. I believe he was perfectly justified to leave High Hrothgar.

Obviously he doesn't ask his people to fight to the death regardless of the situation, otherwise he and his guard would all have been killed in the Imperial ambush that resulted in them being taken to Helgen as captives.

"Victory or death" is a thing that gets said and has been said throughout history to motivate soldiers by emphasizing that the cause they are fighting for is also worth dying for, and that even though the odds are stacked against them they are going to keep fighting for it. I believe there is even something in Sun Tzu's Art of War about putting your men on "killing ground" and they will fight all the harder to win because they believe they have no other choice - "killing ground" in this case being a situation where retreat is impossible and the only way to go is forward, over and through the enemy. In recent history the D-Day invasion of Normandy in WWII would be a fair example of this.

It's a rallying cry, a slogan, and an effective one in many cases, especially when the success of the overall strategy requires that you put your soldiers on "killing ground" where victory or death will most likely be the only two options that they will have. It's not a military strategy in its own right that is useful or effective in every situation.

In the reality of combat, a good leader has to be far more pragmatic, otherwise he is not very effective. It is not effective to throw men to their deaths when their deaths will do nothing to advance the cause overall. An individual soldier - and particularly one from a warrior culture like that of the Nords - might be willing to throw himself to his own death for honor, or glory, whatever, regardless of the "big picture" - but for a leader trying to achieve a larger goal that individual's glorious and honorable death is to be avoided if it serves no other purpose.

When Ulfric's small party was ambushed, they were greatly outnumbered according to Ralof. At some point Ulfric made the decision that it was a losing battle, that his capture and/or death was inevitable under the circumstances, and told his men to stand down. Letting them fight to the death wouldn't have changed anything, unless he used it as a cover for his own escape, which he obviously did not do. He did not desert them and let them fight and die while he ran for safety, nor did he require them to die in a hopeless effort to save him from being captured or killed when he came to the conclusion that it was indeed hopeless at that moment. As long as they are still alive, there is the small hope of rescue or escape in the future, neither of which is possible if they all die right then and there.

"Victory or death" implies that "victory" is still a possibility, and that you will fight to the death in order to achieve it. When it becomes obvious that victory in a particular engagement is no longer possible, a good leader doesn't throw even more soldiers into the gaping maw of defeat. He preserves what life he can in the hopes that an opportunity to reverse their current situation will present itself.

Well I would have left High Hrothgar to fight for Skyrim if I were in Ulfric's position. I wouldn't just sit about like the Greybeards. I'd also use the Thu'um in battle if I'd learned it, no point letting those 10 years I spent meditating in High Hrothgar go to waste is there ?

I've never played Tropico 4, but Nationalism is literally a belief in/love of 'the nation'.


Ulfric was the son of a Jarl, hardly a 'grunt'.


1) Historical point: Hitler didn't create the Nazi party, he was the 55th member IIRC
2) The Stormcloaks aren't a political party, they don't exist in a society with Skyrim's feudal level of development.


So have hundreds of people through out history, it's called a Coup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Jammeh took power this way for example, is he compareable to Ulfric?



That's called a characteristic of being a good leader. Both command troops as well (shock horror).

I say Nationalism as real political parties such as the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Various Catalan Nationalist/Separatist parties. Those that which to see their own cultures independent from the cultures of another country.

Incorrect.

Kemal Ataturk was a nationalist, but not a fascist or a genocidal maniac. Anything but.

Ulfriq is almost identical to Ataturk. Read Lord Kinross' biography.

Again comparing them to modern day political parties doesn't really work..

A better comparison is nationalist movements in the Middle Ages, such as the Wars of Scottish Independence. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

I think you misunderstand my post, =/= stands for not equal. I totally agree with your stance.