Even though Skyrim is the best game I've played in the last 12 years, there's one thing that annoys me a bit:

Being good or evil is a great thing, but you cannot be the BEST at everything in the same time! You're the head of the companions, you are the head of the college - the arch-mage, you are also the most respected person by spiritual Graybeards (a dragonborn), noble woman/man that everyone love and respect. You fight for freedom and injustice, want to help the poor that lost the ring in the cave. Or relatives. Or lovers. You fix the lost relationships and want to bring the peace and love to the world.

In the same time, you are a cannibal, the biggest thief chief the planet ever had, merciless head of the twisted assassin group of Dark Brotherhood, a massive cultist, you betray and sacrifice your friends for fun and joy. You are totally sick and mental person that should be avoided at all costs or killed on the most wanted list.

While it's okay with me to have the option to choose what do you want to become (for example, the whole idea of Dark Brotherhood was sick for me so I killed Astrid without any further questions and released the prisoners, the same for cannibals, etc.), it's not logical or possible to be EVERYTHING in the same time. You can't be spiritual (in a good way), noble and inherently GOOD and in the same time be the extreme of the opposite side. You can pretened but cannot actually be so! On top of that, you're also the best of the best in everything you touch! Not logical.

I think Bethesda should make some sort of karmic engine where your good and bad sides would be measured so you could either retain or lose certain abilities. For example, if you want to become the thief or assassin, you gradually lose some of the more spiritual and noble stuff, people try to stay away from you, etc. And vice versa. That's something that game like Skyrim really needs, in my opinion.

Also, you'd have to choose ONE (or TWO at max) "ceo" position. E.g. If you are the Arch mage, you can't be the head of anything else. But being the Arch Mage would grant you certain abilities that others do not have... and so on. You could always resign and try to be the head of something else if and when you qualify.

What do you think?

I wish the game were more like this because then people would stop complaining that there are no "consequences " to your actions. I don't need a "karmic" engine, however, because I roleplay my characters, and rarely advance any one of them to more than one guild leadership position.

My Altmer mage, for instance, wouldn't be caught dead anywhere near the thieves guild or the DB, and would have no reason to join companions.

My Khajiit thief cannot decide whether he wants to go to the "dark" side so to speak and join the dark brotherhood, so maybe two guilds for him. The Skyrim thieves guild is pretty wicked, so it may not be that big of a moral leap downward for him to join the DB.

My Nord warrior would not be caught dead anywhere near the thieves guild, the DB or the mages guild. He never steals anything and usually announces himself before a fight (no sneaking) and only defends himself, rather than initiating combat.

So, I guess I self impose the types of rules you are talking about having imposed by the game engine. I would not have a problem with the game engine imposing those rules. Would not affect me one way or the other.

Some people like having a scoreboard so sure.

As to the using it to lock certain paths not so much.

I bet Grelod wished you came to the realization that the DB was sick before you two met.

I've thought about this before..And never really got a chance to experience this in Fallout, as I lost interest early on.(swords>guns) However, I don't know how I personally would enjoy it. I tend to create very evil, sinister characters...Should this effect how many quests I can get, or how many bountys are put on my head..well, realistic..yes..but, I'm not playing these games for realism. Also, this kicked me in the ass in Oblivion, killing during a seperate quest..got me kicked out of the theives guild..brutal. I was happy that changed in Skyrim.

Not a karmic, out-of-game-world system but an in-game individual and faction based reputation system. I don't want to be judged by a game. But I am fine by being judged by people and groups in the game.

I would love to have the freedom to do such things which would make certain people and groups hate me and hate me more.

And also, ranks.

I would love to be in the role of a teacher in the collage questline. And being a teacher would mean some skill requirement. After that, I wouldn't mind the rest.

Good vs. Evil personality systems never fail to annoy me. They're awful, restrictive things that reward only the most ridiculous absolutists. Most players have differing moral codes, many more simply play grey characters whose motivations aren't so black-and-white as the good vs. evil dichotomy. If a more detailed personality system was programmed into subsequent Elder Scrolls products, I would prefer it take on a more flexible form, such as GW2's triumvite of Ferocity, Dignity and Charm or reflect the deeds you have done for various NPCsrather than every action you have ever done across the map.

They had such a system in Morrowind and to a lessor extent in Oblivion as well. Don't know why they took that out for Skyrim.

they flat out told you if you kill someone you're getting the boot, i was pretty pissed when i found out i cant get kicked out of any guild in skyrim

anyway, we had karma in oblivion (under a different name) and fallout3 (and fallout NV if you count that), it is stupid that we dont have it in skyrim. although i know where my character stands on his morality, the world doesnt and hardly ever treat me the way my morality would call for. although actions should be preceived differently by different factions, so a fame/infamy system for each faction would be something good to add on too

We need a reputation system based on your actions, we also should have a guild based reputation system, if you do something to wrong the guild you should be in ranger of getting the boot. It would show more cause and effect in the game thus making the world more believable and less static. I also think you should have certain skill requirements to advance in a guild similar to Morrowinds guild progression system.

No thanks, sounds too much like an alignment system
My characters join the factions that suit their personality, morality, abilities etc
They can make those decisions fine by themselves

edit: but I wouldn't mind what Otheral suggests, a reputation system based on what people know about my characters

It's totally up to you. You can break character any time you want. It's not the game's responsibility to keep you in character... that's what makes it a roleplaying game. Now... it would be nice if the world reacted more to your choices. If someone had reason to know you were the head of the Mages guild, they might treat you differently than they would the master of the Thieves guild. I'm fine with that. But a "rule" that you can't be both is against what the game should be.

I agree with your first part.

Yes your action should be reflected based on what you do within the world, that alone would deepen the roleplaying experience in itself. I do not understand why there is not something line that in this game, the worms would be a tar more interesting place.

Well, yes..but I took that to mean while on the job. I forget what the situation was, but it was one of those "oh,crap!" moments.

No thanks.

That existed in Oblivion (Fame and Infamy) and it actually had an impact on your gameplay and abilities to do things with NPCs or interact with the Nine Divines and do certain quests.

If logic is your argument then you have sadly lost. What is logical about a race of feline creatures that, depending on what cycle of the moon it is, will determine if you are more humanoid like and bipedal, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, a giant freaking tiger mount that the others of your race use instead of horses. Back on topic, no karma system please. Do what me and everyone else does and role play. Good gosh what is it with certain fans needing to be told they are good or bad, told that they can or can't do certain things ect. It seems like good old RPing is dying out to action adventurers. It's not a bad idea OP but I don't think it belongs in TES.

The problem with the Karma system was that even acts that had no witnesses had an effect. I like the idea of restrictions but I'm just not sure a karma system would be a good basis. Being the head of something, especially something like the collage, is more political than anything. Besides, someone should be able to have a secret double life. Good upholding citizen during the day and deadly assassin by night. As long as you can prove your worth then you should hold the position/title. But what is proving your worth? That's the question...

Take the companions. They are honorable and proud warriors. They do good deeds....for a price. If the cause is noble/important enough then I'm sure they would do it for no coin. Not that they wouldn't receive payment, fame can be as much as a reward as coin. They seem to uphold the law as well. So to be a member, never mind the leader at this point, you must be honorable. You must not be caught breaking the law (key word is "caught" and even then, killing the last witness is the same as if it never happened). Petty crimes like stealing items less than 100g can be overlooked (sometimes you click something by mistake) but things like assault and murder could mean you get kicked out and then you must make up for your crimes (not just serve/pay for them to the guards but do something for the guild itself). Which brings me to the system. Standing. Just starting out, you'll have a slight negative standing with the imperials and a slight positive with the storm cloaks. This would just be the nature of how the game starts. If you choose to go with the imperial into the keep instead of the storm cloak, this act alone could cause the standings with the two individuals to swap. Since these individuals are also members of different faction, a % of your standing with them goes toward their faction as well.

The more of a positive standing you have with an individual or faction, the more they welcome and like you. The more negative, and the more they hate you. If you go negative enough, they should even try and attack you provided their doing so won't get them in trouble with the law (so encounters away from town may result in open attacks).

The things you do can therefore have an influence on everybody's standing. You save the world from Alduin and you get a big boost in standing with everyone. You join the storm cloaks and those that sympathize will have an increased standing, where those that are loyal to the imperials will have a decreased standing.

So back to the Companions. They are loyal to the storm cloaks so joining up with the imperials and wiping out the storm cloaks could mean the companions don't let you in.

Committing acts of assault, theft, murder, etc. will mean your standing with everyone in the hold going down (with exception) even after paying the fine or going to jail. The only way to get your standing back is to do favors or general acts of good for the people in the hold. Simply joining factions can have an influence on standings. Join the thieves' guild and your standing with good people should go down. Being part of the DB is secretive so your standing shouldn't really change. Joining the college shouldn't really up your standing with the general populous since magic is not trusted but not really hated and lastly joining the companions would up your standing with the general populous. So that is one up, one down and two no changes.


Of course advancing and ultimately being the leader should be based more on just having good standing with the other members. You should show an appropriate level of competence (skill level) with a particular set of skills to hold a certain rank. Being the Arcmage and you should have at least one school of magic maxed out to master (Conjuration 100) and should have two others at expert level (75+).

The way standings work with certain people and guilds won't be the same across the board. If you are committing acts of assault and murder, the DB isn't going to care and the TG will because they are thieves and not murderers (disregarding exceptional cases). Stealing on the other hand, again the DB don't care but the TG will in a good way this time. Stealing and not getting caught is what will really increase your standing with the TG (doing the radiant quests granting bonus standing since it's guild related). Getting away with murders (killing bandits don't count since that wouldn't be an act of crime if witnessed) should then get you good standing with the DB. Again, doing the radiant quests (night mother repeatable for example) would earn you bonus.

On an individual bases, shady characters may like you better if you do bad things, so while the general populous' standing goes down, your standing with the shady individual may go up.

Quests could then require you to have a minimum standing with the individual or faction before they are given to you. Thus, the quest will no doubt be in relation to your character's nature. Shady individuals would give you quests that require to to break the law or otherwise to bad things. There could then be some quests given to you as a way to redeem yourself.


It's kinda like the karma system but I didn't like that it didn't matter if you were seen doing something or not and that it was also a general blanket. A standings system could be more flexible where it can blanket or only make a different to a specific npc. All depending on what it is you did to make the standing change.

Fame and Infamy. When I saw this was removed I was very disappointed. (if you are unaware, oblivion had this).

I didn't mean to put some "limitations" to the character or to frustrate the player, but rather to make it more real with more replay value. In many RPGs you choose your race as well as your preferred abilities - mage, priest, warrior... etc.
If you are mage and want to be a warrior, well, create the warrior character, you can't be good at both. Something what Turja did with his set of characters in Skyrim, but it's a pain for me to do so.

Skyrim is the first Elder Scroll game I play so I didn't know other prequels had this stuff.

Bethesda has always done an excelent job at providing Black/White/Gray/Neutral options in their karma system.

I think it would have made a fine addition to an all ready fine title.

Maybe we could have something like Daedric and Aedric alligntment

Like if you become a werewolf you'll get points for Hicrine and then each time you transform some more
And if you steal then points for Nocturnal
If you kill Orcs Malacath will hate you, while he'll like you for each elf you kill
If you help people Mara will like you,
If you tell people they are pretty Dibella will like you
If you kill a Thalmor you'll get points for Talos
If you follow prophecy Azura will be nice
Every skillbook you'll read will add points to Hermeaus Mora
Every chicken you kill will earn points for Sheogorath
If you betray a friend Bhoethiah will be happy and every assassination earns you points for Mephala, unless it's for the Dark Brotherhood in which case Sithis will be happy.

Then all these people should be exclusive from one another so you can never do all and then once you reach 80 points for any specific prince/Aedra people can start liking or not liking you based on those points which could make quests available or dissapear entirely, and then when you reach a 100 a Daedric prince can show up and punch you in the face for actually believing anybody would care about any action you take that they can not immediately see...

The Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guilds are hidden guilds. Becoming a cannibal is only known to a few people, the others won't know you are one. The strange thing is becoming the leader of the college of winterhold, the thieves guild and the companions but that can be fixed by having skill requirements. Sure you can still do them all, but it will be a lot harder.