Thoughts on Improving Disposition, Choices and Other Things : V

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:47 pm

Another topic got me thinking about how the game world reacts to your character. While the other thread was more of an argument on which game tackled this mechanic the best. I would like this to be a productive, unified attempt to isolate a winning formula that could make TES the undisputed king of making sandbox RPG experiences. I think everyone agrees it can be and hopefully will be improved so let's put our heads together.

Here are some things that I think would be exceptional if implemented in TES VI:
- Some sort of disposition system. What I would like to see are multiple scales that effect how people treat you. For example have a scale for good/evil, intimidating/harmless, fame/infamy etc. To accent this, have all NPCs in the game set to certain dispositions as well. Say you walk into a town as an incredibly infamous war hero. Most of the townsfolk will shy away from you, but the odd brave, less morally inclined citizens would still talk to you. This is an extreme case, but can you see my train of thought? These scales should obviously be scaled by your actions within factions, MQs, wars and even side quests.
- In order for quests to do this, there must be moral, world changing decisions to be made at certain points and obviously multiple ways to complete each quest. Say you are a member of DB who walks up to his victims and kills them loudly, this character would obviously be more infamous than one who is never seen when they murder.
- The game world needs to change based on certain decisions. This means people recognizing ends to certain conflicts and your characters status. Things like crime could become more rampant if you rebuild the thieves guild or the amount of bandits and packs of wolves on the road would diminish when you make the Companions a force. Cities should change too based on wars and your actions. We should have been able to clear the bandits out of Helgen and have it begin the rebuilding process. Same for Bruma in OB. But, if we didn't help Bruma or Helgen, they would remain a ruin.
- You should have to make a choice about which factions to choose such as the Companions not being open to mages or something along those lines.

These are obviously just suggestions and would need to be fleshed out properly in the whole scheme of the game world, but what are your thoughts?

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:14 pm

I think you're on the right track and completely agree that the discussion in this thread should just focus on Skyrim and areas that we though could be improved.

I haven't seen much productive come out of threads that just devolve into "this developer vs that developer" nitpicking.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:50 pm

I agree mostly.

As long as the disposition system is angled as how society views your character based on your actions that have been witnessed ect. rather than a strict 'moral' system. and also, they should be independant scales, not sliding scales...

Oblivion having Fame and Infamy independant for example. My reasoning is this; your character may be a Hero who mostly does what is right, but may have been forced to do some questionable things in his adventures. This should be recorded, rather than just lowering your fame.

In Oblivion for example, I tended to have about half my fame in infamy; as my character was a rogueish hero.

Would like something perhaps like this: Fame (positive reputation/law abiding), Infamy (negative reputation/unlawful), Dread (how scary and dangerous you are) , Honour (How honest and fair you are. Giving people a chance to surrender instead of just killing them for example)

This way gives you a fair amount of elements that can be interchanged imo.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:35 am

I agree mostly.

As long as the disposition system is angled as how society views your character based on your actions that have been witnessed ect. rather than a strict 'moral' system. and also, they should be independant scales, not sliding scales...

Oblivion having Fame and Infamy independant for example. My reasoning is this; your character may be a Hero who mostly does what is right, but may have been forced to do some questionable things in his adventures. This should be recorded, rather than just lowering your fame.

In Oblivion for example, I tended to have about half my fame in infamy; as my character was a rogueish hero.

Would like something perhaps like this: Fame (positive reputation/law abiding), Infamy (negative reputation/unlawful), Dread (how scary and dangerous you are) , Honour (How honest and fair you are. Giving people a chance to surrender instead of just killing them for example)

This way gives you a fair amount of elements that can be interchanged imo.

Exactly. I kind of threw the post together quickly and didn't want to go into a whole lot of depth, but I agree entirely. A sliding scale doesn't work that well because it assumes both fame and infamy are mutually exclusive. In order to balance separate scales though, they would have to work it out so that they affect NPC, faction, and world disposition separately and wouldn't overlap unrealistically. It would definitely take some fine balancing.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:58 pm

NOTE the spoiler tags are there to make the Wall-o-Text smaller, and to hide actual SPOILERS. Proceed with caution.

Armor/Arms

Spoiler

For me, I'd love to see the following:
Sarissa Pike and Tower Shield, as well as a companion combat technique like shield wall, and the ability to thrust while blocking instead of merely bashing.
Halbards
Hand-and-a-half swords
Flails
Spears
Atl'atls (c'mon, Mammoth without an Atl'atl?)
Throwing Knives

Note on the Sarissa Pike/Tower Shield. at an 18 foot melee advantage, the sarissa pike should decrease run speed by 25%. Further, the tower shield should disable running and make you have to march, dropping you to 90% speed when you raise to block. Instead of bashing with the tower shield, you should merely thrust with the spear/pike/sword, or make a 70% smash with a mace/axe.

Spears should thrust and leave bleeding damage. When used with poisons, the bleeding damage should be doubled (same goes for axes with perks in my opinion).

Flails should merely mimic maces.

Halbards should thrust and cut, similar to a spear/axe hybrid (as it is).

Why don't companions have a tactics wheel? I would love if I could set my companion to stay in a spot and stealth shot with his bow while I engage the enemy, or lock shields with me as we advance on the enemy. Bah!

Armor - Get rid of Light/Heavy trees, and make a single Armor tree with similar perks to the Light armor tree, then add a new tree for pikes/spears/thrown weapons instead.

Change Smithing so you can smith anything, but your smithing level effects the outcome (weight diminishes and armor value increases as smithing level increases), and Set bonuses are applied when/if you choose set perks (Elven now makes you better at X,Y,Z). Allow certain sets to hit the armor cap while other sets fall short but add to offence more. class sets as light/medium/heavy merely as a formality to show which has the best defense(Heavy), or offense(Light), or is set at a middle-road deal (medium). Not allowing each set to hit cap and giving them each unique bonuses from the smithing tree allows for more meaningful selection at endgame in terms of style of armor (I prefer Steel Plate to Daedric in my opinion)

Magic

Spoiler

Should have to use a spell, say, 10 times before you can use it perfectly (mages guild could have test/training rooms to do this). Spell Tomes still purchased, but merely give you the outline to how to cast the spell, not instantly teach you it (I don't pick up a Calculus book and begin integrating multi-variable equations, it takes time....). Beyond that, I haven't really delved into the magic side of the game yet (only 300+ hours so far, give me some time xD )

Speech/Immersion/Recognition

Spoiler

I feel like what i do is noticed, although it could be better.

Maybe the guards/townspeople (at least in Whiterun) should know I'm the Harbinger of the companions, random npcs shouldn't talk to me unless I engage with them, and quests that I HAVE to talk to random npcs to begin should be instigated when (at a random occurrence) two npcs related to said quest discuss it and the play overhears the discussion (see the thalmor quest with thorald in Whiterun).

In Riften, shopkeepers should act mean/nice (depending on their view/attitude towards the thieves guild (such as if they fear it or if they respect it or if they despise it)) such as higher/lower prices, calling for guards, demanding you leave their shops, etc. As you build the thieves reputation in other areas, shops should build similar dispositions to you.

Further, there should be smaller thieves dens that are created in each hold capital as you further the guilds reputation in skyrim. Some will say the structure has to exist prior to it being used, and will be odd for players who do not do the thieves guild quests. no! Prime example: Purchase Breezehome before becoming Thane, and notice the top rooms, or rather room, as Lydia's room will not even exist until you gain access to her.

I could go on, I do think Stormcloak/Imperial recognition should also be built in, but it follows similar to my other suggestions.

Those are some ideas I've had, I understand they may be too large, etc, but yeah, I think even small versions of those would build Skyrim as well.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:00 am

NOTE the spoiler tags are there to make the Wall-o-Text smaller, and to hide actual SPOILERS. Proceed with caution.

Armor/Arms

Spoiler

For me, I'd love to see the following:
Sarissa Pike and Tower Shield, as well as a companion combat technique like shield wall, and the ability to thrust while blocking instead of merely bashing.
Halbards
Hand-and-a-half swords
Flails
Spears
Atl'atls (c'mon, Mammoth without an Atl'atl?)
Throwing Knives

Note on the Sarissa Pike/Tower Shield. at an 18 foot melee advantage, the sarissa pike should decrease run speed by 25%. Further, the tower shield should disable running and make you have to march, dropping you to 90% speed when you raise to block. Instead of bashing with the tower shield, you should merely thrust with the spear/pike/sword, or make a 70% smash with a mace/axe.

Spears should thrust and leave bleeding damage. When used with poisons, the bleeding damage should be doubled (same goes for axes with perks in my opinion).

Flails should merely mimic maces.

Halbards should thrust and cut, similar to a spear/axe hybrid (as it is).

Why don't companions have a tactics wheel? I would love if I could set my companion to stay in a spot and stealth shot with his bow while I engage the enemy, or lock shields with me as we advance on the enemy. Bah!

Armor - Get rid of Light/Heavy trees, and make a single Armor tree with similar perks to the Light armor tree, then add a new tree for pikes/spears/thrown weapons instead.

Change Smithing so you can smith anything, but your smithing level effects the outcome (weight diminishes and armor value increases as smithing level increases), and Set bonuses are applied when/if you choose set perks (Elven now makes you better at X,Y,Z). Allow certain sets to hit the armor cap while other sets fall short but add to offence more. class sets as light/medium/heavy merely as a formality to show which has the best defense(Heavy), or offense(Light), or is set at a middle-road deal (medium). Not allowing each set to hit cap and giving them each unique bonuses from the smithing tree allows for more meaningful selection at endgame in terms of style of armor (I prefer Steel Plate to Daedric in my opinion)

Magic

Spoiler

Should have to use a spell, say, 10 times before you can use it perfectly (mages guild could have test/training rooms to do this). Spell Tomes still purchased, but merely give you the outline to how to cast the spell, not instantly teach you it (I don't pick up a Calculus book and begin integrating multi-variable equations, it takes time....). Beyond that, I haven't really delved into the magic side of the game yet (only 300+ hours so far, give me some time xD )

Speech/Immersion/Recognition

Spoiler

I feel like what i do is noticed, although it could be better.

Maybe the guards/townspeople (at least in Whiterun) should know I'm the Harbinger of the companions, random npcs shouldn't talk to me unless I engage with them, and quests that I HAVE to talk to random npcs to begin should be instigated when (at a random occurrence) two npcs related to said quest discuss it and the play overhears the discussion (see the thalmor quest with thorald in Whiterun).

In Riften, shopkeepers should act mean/nice (depending on their view/attitude towards the thieves guild (such as if they fear it or if they respect it or if they despise it)) such as higher/lower prices, calling for guards, demanding you leave their shops, etc. As you build the thieves reputation in other areas, shops should build similar dispositions to you.

Further, there should be smaller thieves dens that are created in each hold capital as you further the guilds reputation in skyrim. Some will say the structure has to exist prior to it being used, and will be odd for players who do not do the thieves guild quests. no! Prime example: Purchase Breezehome before becoming Thane, and notice the top rooms, or rather room, as Lydia's room will not even exist until you gain access to her.

I could go on, I do think Stormcloak/Imperial recognition should also be built in, but it follows similar to my other suggestions.

Those are some ideas I've had, I understand they may be too large, etc, but yeah, I think even small versions of those would build Skyrim as well.

Right, I'm usually good for not posting spoilers... Sorry about that.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:02 pm

Right, I'm usually good for not posting spoilers... Sorry about that.

no, I was more talking my spoilers, you didn't post anything that I noticed

sorry for the confusion. I just didnt want someone to read my stuff and go HEY! you ruined that FACTION line for me!

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:46 pm

no, I was more talking my spoilers, you didn't post anything that I noticed

sorry for the confusion. I just didnt want someone to read my stuff and go HEY! you ruined that FACTION line for me.

All good ideas. The gameworld's interaction with your character could be fleshed out so much more and as others have said before, it is the thing the bugs me the most about Skyrim. Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is my favourite game of all time with Oblivion being a close second.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:29 pm

hmm, I was really hoping to see more discussion here, seems only the debate threads really take off D: