The Imperial vs. Stormcloak debacale has always interested me, especially hearing why people chose one side over the other and why. The issue is, however, that the vast majority of responses usually equate to ‘STORMCLOAKS ARE RACIST!!!!’ or ‘ULRICS A MURDERER!!!’ as well as a few ‘THE EMPIRE svckS!!!’ sprinkled with a little fan-boyism throughout without much bi-partisan thought. So much of it boils down to minor issues of likeability of leaders and the propaganda each side feeds to its loyal supporters. So when I ask ‘Why do you support the Empire/Stormcloaks’ I would greatly appreciate it if people would explain, in detail if it suits them, why they do.

I would prefer the racist arguments to be left out, because if you know anything about TES your side is racist as well. Compare Windhelm and Markarth and you’ll see what I mean and such arguments are frivolous. I want to know what the Empire represents that leads you to fall in line behind the drummer or what about the Stormcloaks it is that makes you rush to the trenchs outside the snappy zingers that seem to over rule most of these types of threads. If you don’t like Ulfric, I wanna know why and what you have that makes you think that. If you don’t like Tullius, I wanna know what you believe makes him such a bad guy and what you have to back it up.

For me, I’m a Stormcloak supporter because I believe in freedom above all else. The Mede Empire isn’t the Septim Empire, which I was a tremendous support of once upon a time, and at fall of the Septim Empire the Proviences became independent, one by one including Skyrim. I’ve seen the argument ‘Skyrim has always been apart of the Empire’ and its simply not true, at least not in the sense that it was always by choice. The Mede Empire ruled by force, and it’s a common notion in Tamriel that might is right and especially in Skyrim. That very point however, means that any rebellious nave who can kill a king or raise an army has the right to challenge whatever power is at large.

To me, the Empire has lost what it was. The Mede Empire steps on Nordic right and tradition by interfearing in the Moot by declaring Ulfric a traitor and murderer when even Torygg’s Court says the battle between the two was a duel, not a murder and thus no law was even broken. At that, they ban Talos worship and expect the people to simply obey. I’ve seen it argued that the Empire was turning a blind eye to it, though it hardly makes sense to put in jepordy the peace that so many died for just so the Nords can have their God, but even then its not the point about strict enforcement for me, its about compromising your beliefs and those of your constiutents without their agreement.

To me, Ulfric seems genuine in his goal, but I don’t deny the flavor of power he gives off. I’m pretty certain he wants to be High King, but I also believe he believe that there is no other choice in the matter if Skyrim is to have the freedom it deserves.

What say the rest of you?

I Remain neutral, while the two sides are fighting each other, I'm fighting the thalmor.

Very good and respectable stance.

I remain completely neutral because I firmly believe in the right of the Stormcloaks and Imperials to kill each other as much as they want.

In principle though, I am sympathetic to the Stormcloaks to a degree (however small), considering the Dominion seceded from the Empire as well.

I tend to remain neutral in mixed company and not getting involved in politics, but I always felt the need of a fourth side [the Thalmor being the third] to side with so to strike against the Empire while also keeping the Stormcloak at leash.

I'm halfway to bed, so I apologise for this lacking response (I shall endeavor to provide a more fulfilling one later, scout's honour) but I just wanted to leave a singular thought for consideration;

Unless I'm mis-remembering, the only Imperial province who's cultural (some), religion and right to self rule were legally set out in some manner (at least one that we/I'm aware of) is Morrowind via the Treaty of the Armistice. So if Tiber Septim never granted similar rights to Skyrim (or other provinces), then the Empire is quite lawfully able to overrule and intervene on matters of Nordic tradition. I will however say that I feel that such an infringement is not (morally) right, given that the Empire has been quite happy to let them do their own thing previously when it suited them.

Despite the fact I have already answered this three-thousand times, my Main Character is a High Elf. He wants to help the Thalmor....lol.

I don't like anybody on the Stormcloak side really though as superficial as that is.

Personally I believe that the Stormcloaks have a somewhat just cause, as every nation should have self-governance. An alliance between Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim would be ideal in my opinion.

I do feel a little bad about fighting the Legion though, as they were my favourite faction in the past games, then, as the OP stated, it's a different empire.

I should mention my current character (or upcoming character) is going to remain neutral, at least until there is ample reason to sway him one way or another. Neutrality is something I can respect in terms of being truly conflicted or indefrent, unlike say Jarl Balgruff who is playing the sides to reap the benifits.

It was clear from the start he'd join the Imperils

In my case, Mods remove that dreadfully terrible first impression


The Raga of Hammerfell won a similar deal from Tiber Septim during the events of Redguard and 'Imperial' Culture tends to be strong in the cosmopolitan 'Forbear' cities, and even then comments from the 1st PGE mention the Ra'ga tolerate the Imperial religion mostly because it can be related to some of their many God's as well. Aside from that though, the 'Imperial Cult' is as far as I know the 'official' relgious institution of the Empire. The Eight and One, or now just The Eight.

I'm not really a fan of honor tradition only when it suits your needs, and is a heafty criticism of mine against this current vision of the Empire.

I find myself drawn to the cloaks for three reasons.

1 - I believe that people should have the right to self-determination. As Balgruuf said about the WCG: "We weren't asked, we were told, and we had to like it." There is no equal partnership in the Empire. It is Cyrodiil using the other provinces, and abandoning them when they become a liability. Which is how all empires work.

2 - I believe in the right to religious freedom. That includes the right to believe in no deities at all. When that does not exist, people get dragged off to be tortured and murdered on a regular basis. It does not even matter if they are violating the religious laws. If someone's neighbor does not like them, they inform on them to get them murdered.

3 - The game starts with the Empire trying to murder me. I take that personal. I could have let it slide if they had just arrested me and questioned me. But trying to kill me out of hand - with no trial, and not even a death warrant signed by an Imperial official - that is not the way a nation of law operates. It is the actions of a pack of thugs. The fact that they were going to murder Ulfric and the other Stormcloak prisoners in the very same circumstances: with no trial, no death warrant, nothing legal or official at all, shows that I was not a fluke or random action by some soldier acting on their own. It is endemic of the Empire. A civilized nation would at least put on a show trial followed by a first class hanging. Just like Saddam got. Sure that is hypocritical, but by at least pretending to follow their own laws, a State can act like those laws still exist. As it is, the Empire does not even make a pretense at being a nation of law or order.

I can agree with your other points but er the Stormcloaks are the same is this regard...no trials, no order, etc.

In the interest of playing the devil's advocate then, should Ulfric give Tulius a "fair trial" after capturing Solitude and when Tulius is on the ground injured?

These are the kind of answers I wish I saw more in these debates.


I feel this certainly give the Empire a bad first impression, and it certainly did mine. You explained it very well as to why that would certainly leave a sour taste in the mouths of people who start the game and reasonable criticism against the Legion.

I assume you are referencing the execution of Tullius? it should be noted that he is the only example I can think of, as the Imperial aligned Jarls are allowed to keep their lives and even allowed to rally with the Empire. Even after victory their not really imprisoned or even executed, their simply kept in Solitude in the Blue Palace.

I do not think Tullius should be tried at all. He certainly should not have been killed like that. For the most part he was just a soldier doing his job. Though I do think him trying to murder Ulfric and the others at Helgen was an act of thuggery rather than soldiery. But stooping to the same depths does not prove you are the better man, and Ulfric should have taken the high road instead. I think Ulfric should hold Tullius hostage and use him as a bargaining chip in the inevitable peace talks that will follow a Stormcloak victory. With the Empire being hard up for soldiers, Ulfric should be able to get some concessions at the peace talks in return for handing over Tullius and all the other Imperials who were taken prisoner. Killing any Imperial soldier is really a bad idea from that point of view. They are worth much more alive. I think killing Tullius is the stupidest move Ulfric ever made, but given the quality of writing by Bethesda, it is no surprise.

Tullius' death was a missed opertunity. I agree 100% with you SubRosa.

You make some good points and I agree on what you say about the Empire.

However I believe a united front against the Thalmor is better than one fractured into seperate provinces, so Im an Empire supporter.

Not in the least because I absolutely despise Ulfric.
He is the sort of man that would say or do anything to get power, and he made it so the Empire had no choice but to intervene in Skyrim, where they previously allowed Talos worship on the quiet, because Ulfric used the issue as a platform for his rise to power.

The dialogue of the vampire court wizard about events is an eye opener, she makes Ulfric's character clear as glass and doesnt paint a pretty picture.
There are no tales of scheming for power or dishonourable acts like that perpetrated by Tullius and Queen Elisif seems to me a far more fair and emotionally balanced sort, better equiped to rule Skyrim.

If history is anything to go by, The empire will be victorious once again.
And I'm going to play my part.

Why are you calling it a debacale?

What is it that makes you believe he is the kind of man you described? Like I said, I wanna know the reasonings behind it all. Is there anything in-game that really leads you to this conclusion via dialouge or action upon his behalf? I can certainly respect the sentiment about a united front against the Thalmor, but at the same time I don't believe the Empire is in the position to deliver that.


But I want to know why you are playing your part. Do you take issue with the Stormcloak goals?


because these threads usually end in 'A total, often ludicrous failure'.

Yes, the dialogue of the Stendarr vampire woman in the Blue Palace for one.
The dialogue of Elisif as well. There are several other bits of dialogue and documents, but its late and Im tired and dont feel like going digging atm. Maybe tomorrow.
There is also the way he rules his seat of governement.
Everything that he does in Windhelm is designed to rally the Nords and he doesnt give a flying ratchet about any of the other races, they are neglected to the point of squalor. Fitting my view of the man, its because he has nothing to gain from them.

I very much respect you SubRosa, but I will respectfully disagree here.

1. Killing the king so as to provoke a civil war is not IMO an example of 'self-determination.' Indeed, were the Civil War won by the Stormcloaks, who pray tell would most likely wind up being the new King of Skyrim? Why Ulfric Stormcloak of course, the very perpetrator who started it in the first place. This puts Ulfric low down on my list of 'heroes' in the game. Seems pretty obvious to me a major reason for the civil war is Ulfric Stormcloaks lust for power.

2. Religious freedom is all well and good, but the facts seem to be that the Thalmor whupped the Empire = they had two choices (1) make the concession to allow the Thalmor to interfere; or (2) soldier on and risk an even worse outcome, perhaps a full-scale collapse of the Empire. Pragmatics of cultural survival IMO must come before idealistic issues such as religious freedom.

Admittedly, the Thalmor are despicable, oppressive and evil (it seems). But is that an excuse to rebel against your Nord leaders and engage in a civil war against your fellow Nords?

3. Blame the anonymous Captain instead of the whole Empire perhaps? After all, Hadvar does express reservations on executing you as you are not on the list. General Tullius is absent at the time. All we can gather from this is: (a) Imperial soldiers are obedient; ( Imperial procedures are bureacratic, perhaps woefully so; ( c ) there is (or was rather) at least one corrupt/incompetent female Captain in the Imperial fort at Helgen.

In truth, I think Bethesda is to be praised for having concocted such a realistically ambiguous story in which choosing the "bad guys" and the "good guys" is so subjective.

I lean Imperial, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the Stormcloaks are 'evil.' Misguided perhaps, but then many representatives of the Empire also seem so.

The Stormcloak goals are too short sighted. They don't seem to grasp the bigger picture. There's more at stake then Skyrim. They will lead to a divided Tamriel and a divided Tamriel is a weak Tamriel.
The thalmor are too powerful for some lose alliance of independent provinces to beat. A strong unified government, A well trained and equipped army and a common goal and belief are what it will take.

Plus I'm just loyal. Been with the empire in Morrowind and Oblivion, not going to betray them now.