Ok Bethesda Skyrim is a great game. I can live with removal of athletics, acrobatics, h2d, feather and unlock spell removal. But I shouldn't HAVE to. You could have at least put in some kind of way to fall great distances, a way to move faster, and a way to jump high or great distances.

I can't even jump when sprinting. Really? Why is the button disabled while sprinting? Most people jump WHEN sprinting in real life. In fact, who ever jumps when just standing still? Who jumps when jogging? It's pointless. You jump when running at full speed so you can make the jump.

There should be some way to enchant boots so you can run faster. I'm 220 hours in and have not found anything that makes me faster.

Oblivion was awesome to be able to outrun guards, jump down from a tower and survive a crazy fall. Jump over fences, carts, and nearly anything to make my quick escape. Run and jump from rooftop to rooftop All without shouting or cutting everyone down. I felt like spiderman. Now I feel like everyone else with no special abilities. So I have to waste points on stamina so I can sprint a little longer? Or shout my way to safety? LAME. At least make speed enchantment or boots of quickfoot you promised but are not in the game.

Where is feather spells and potions? Oh so there are some lame potions that increase carry capacity by 30 to 40? Thats garbage. IN Oblivion I'd drink 4 potions that increased by 200 pounds each and be carrying 1200 pounds, put on some special feather enchanted items I kept and carry even more. Increase my strength and do more damage and carry even more stuff. Now I need a stupid steed stone just to carry 400 or so? Bring back feather enchants and potions. Stick to your own lore, no way would such a useful spell be forgotten or lost in 200 years.

Unlock spells gone too? Really? So all the mages in the world decided to give up on unlocking doors and this useful utility spell was lost in the great war? Mehrunes razor somehow is found in Skyrim, a unique artiface, yet a basic spell known by 1000's of mages is lost in time forever?

I don't miss athletics, but I do miss the ability to fall great distances, run faster than a cow, and jump caverns. Some of us have a quake or first person shooter back ground and have moves we like to do. I used to jump over enemies heads, flip a 180 in air and backstab them when I role played an assassin. As a thief I would avoid combat and make great escapes jumping down towers and off bridges or jump water to get away. All the fun movement tricks are gone.

I can't attack when jumping or shoot a bow. You can't do anything when falling. You can't do crap.

Hand to hand. Not a big deal, but those gloves of the pugilist are lame. There should be a general way to increase h2d like using your health/stamina and multiplying damage with that at least.

In retrospect I think they could have gotten rid of the stupid lockpicking tree, and had an athletics skill with perk branches in it like run faster (5 levels) jump & fall greater (5 levels) and carry more weight perk (multiplies stamina x2, x3, x5 respectively) and a few h2h perks. Or put H2H in with one handed, and then make some cool h2h finishing moves where you bash someone's face in or rip their heart out, break their neck, etc.

I actually wanted to see something new added to the Lockpicking system that was in KotoR; the ability to break locks with the chance of damaging the contents inside or alerting those around you.

I found the Mage's Unlock spells cool... but would I love to blow open a locked door with a Fireball.

Rip their heart out? Seriously? I thought that only happened in cheap [censored] japanese action movies...

Can't even use weapons or spells in water. Have to lure slaughterfish to land to kill them. And forget about casting water breathing anywhere it would actually be USEFUL.

Oblivions speeds were ridiculous. I'd like to have speed but I have a hard time adding it in a way that makes in interesting AND NOT game breakingly awesome. Also since speed is out enemies doesn't have to scale to counter your abilities and appear stupid wrt movement in combat, like they did in Oblivion. I think Skyrim handles it pretty well. "Waste points in stamina for running" is lame? Wtf? It makes perfect sense to me, and forces us to balance choices vs penalties. The Oblivion magic system that "could do anything" made magic an absolute boredom. Be a mage and regret the stuff you CAN'T do, just like how a fighter have to regret all the stuff he can't use magic for. I mean, it just makes perfect sense. Arch types get their UNIQUE abilities (with some exceptions to crafting skills) now, why should mages be something special that gets them all?

Big falls can be survived using Become Ethereal shout. So it's there. Penalty of use - have to find the word wall and release the dragons. What is role playing without user choice having an effect? Boring.

Open spells aren't even needed anymore. It gives thieves a better arch type by putting perks into it making greater outcomes on chests, and so far I haven't seen a single locked door that prevented me from getting further in a quest. Locks now appear only to be able to grab some extra loot. Open lock spells doesn't fit the rest of the gameplay mechanics. I'm not too happy about those mechanics, but that's another discussion. If more open lock systems were in (spells, alchemical acids, smashing, whatever), the whole lock mechanics would have to be a lot deeper and serve much more hindrance to progress - but that's something "general gamer" apparently don't want.

You can't do crap while jumping? Tried that in real life? No thanks, I prefer somewhat believable mechanics over high fantasy ones. Just be glad we have air control, something you'd have to pay with with a perk (in some athletics related skill) if I made the game Even if that would have been an abstraction on "being able to calculate precision in the jump" other than fixed power.

As for athletics, this is something I'd want too (rather than stamina), where you have a perk tree on how you distribute that training. I.e. running (marathons, heavy weight, sprint), jumps (high, long, air control), swimming (buoyancy, speed, lung capacity) and so on. Focusing deeply here would make you an acrobatic monk or a burglar with high chance of getting to normally out of reach places (2nd floor balconies etc).

Although I agree on hand to hand, I have problems coming up with a fully working and interesting perk tree for it. Can you? Might have to be more martial art related to make it work, something that's near impossible to do in 1st person. A pure 3rd person game would have no problems implementing this.

Lockpicking is stupid? Why? Because you're not a fan of it? I used the language skills in Daggerfall if they made sense to the character. Unfortunately there was no difficulty setting there, so picking some of these typically had a rather bad impact on your character's strength. Lockpicking feels wrong because locks no longer have an impact on the player. Fix that, don't remove lockpicking!

I don't mind feather spells being gone. As you say, 1200 pounds with no impact whatsoever. It completely ceases to make sense at that point. I prefer low level fantasy where things actually makes sense. Something the carry weight spells (I'm only using potions though) seem to be, and compared to the rest of the game mechanics (we get to carry more in the first place), it seems fairly balanced. I'd still like to see this governed by some strength attribute though, rather than stamina.

YEs!!! I agree-playing Skyrim, a land of mountains, without being able to jump, climb or run fast is playing with a ball and chain.

These type of games work best when you can travel fast enough to sample the delights- not trudge along.

NO, sprinting is not the same. No, climbing mountains is not the same as it was in Oblivion.

Someone talked to Bethesda and they listened to what they thought we wanted. I don't know who those someone's were that removed acrobatics., hi speed running, and even chameleon, but they weren't friends of mine. Or of the game.

Oblivion's speeds were ridiculous? By your standards. Unfortunately, your standards now make Skyrim a trudging experince for others who did not share your view.

To Hoblak:

People can do all kinds of intricate and intense movements while jumping IN REAL LIFE. In a fantasy game where your characters grow to become legendary heroes of amazingly absurd (in a good way) fantasy worlds, the notion that you shouldn't be able to even have the functionality of what real life athletes can do is a little boring.

Michael Jordan,Jackie Chan, Tony Jaa, random kid from NYC doing parkour etc. etc.

They were. But they were supposed to be. You aren't a normal human being. You are a legend in a world of super heroes and demi-gods. Honestly I think they should have kept them in, tied the leveling to sprinting which is not a required button to play the game anymore than the stealth button is and kept the speeds/jumps within a normal human range through leveling but made them superhum with the use of perks.

Lol, chameleon? Now we have invisibility that actually requires some thought wrt how to use. Even Oblivion invisibility was game breaking, I did 90% of the main quest without a fight, or even consideration on anything - is this your idea of good game mechanics - for a role playing game? How can that be worse than a completely game breaking chameleon feature? Besides, sneak skill up so easily (too easily with my game style - I just sneaked through the whole Labyrinthian maze dungeon thingie - didn't stand up until I got out) and is very powerful if you put some perks into it. Oh, you're not a stealth character? Then why do you need chameleon in the first place?

Yes, they were ridiculous. For a low fantasy game, which TES (slightly except Morrowind) tries to portray itself as. There are (too) few in this genre, especially if considering SP 1st person focus. If you want high fantasy, you have "endless" options (in comparison anyway). "Trudging experience"? You're playing a role playing game, not a platformer - take the time to enjoy it, it's not supposed to be fully experienced in a few hours. I use running/sprinting, horses, and carriages, and I'm getting by just fine. I never read one complaint about FO3/FONV lacking "movement speed" (even if a restored bicycle would make sense in that setting, I guess).

Climbing mountains? Sorry dude, but that's not climbing, that's exploiting a game engine weakness (I do it too though). We lost climbing after Daggerfall, and proper grip, traction, & friction isn't something this engine does at all. Maybe havoc could do these things, but it's not supported by the animation system. I'd rather have this glitch completely removed, and replaced with a working climbing skill again. But you/OP would complain about that too, because you'd actually have to make a sacrifice in order to achieve something. Can't have that in a roleplaying game, that would be a disaster, right? From what I read on these forums, more cause and effect is something that is highly desired, but then typically by those who knows what roleplaying is all about. Or rather, was all about.


"Legendary heroes of amazingly absurd fantasy worlds" - that's what I completely disagree on. This is low fantasy genre. So, you think real athletes can run or jump with 400 pounds on their back? Ever see parkour artists wearing heavy armor while doing so? That's the point - in low fantasy things have to make sense. I wouldn't mind acrobatics or high level speeds if the system was deep enough to make perfect sense. But that was never Bethesda's strong side, was it? By that I mean in order to do these "silly things", you'd have to make natural sacrifices so that you can sit there and say "could happen - for an awesome character". I just wouldn't want them back as they used to be. Same goes for Levitation, weird nobody mentioned that one yet

Removal of speed was a great enhancement! Acrobatics, meh, I don't care but it still would've been kind of cool to do Assassin's Creed style parkour. But in the category of speed...GODS did I hate Athletic. It made the game too easy. Yeah, I do agree there should be a speed difference but that should be subtle. In Oblivion, with 100 athletic and 100 speed, I could easily do hit and run tactics on TEN enemies at once without ever getting hit if I play smart.

Jumping while sprinting. I agree with you on that but for PC gamers, that would be kind of awkward as you have to press space while holding the alt key. Yeah, you can change key bindings but it would still be awkward for those who don't know about changing key bindings and I don't want an even bigger gap between console and PC gamers. Still agree with you on the most part.

No. Just no. We don't need to make enchanting more overpowered.

Jumping like you're on the moon breaks realism and doesn't even help in the game except overpower you. And how is that wasting stamina points? It makes sense. When you run, you need stamina to keep running. Not to mention no other NPC can sprint, giving you an advantage of running away. Unlike Oblivion, you have to play smart when running away rather than relying on 100 athletic.

Feather, well there is fortify weight. And if the Feather effect was as powerful as you said it, we'd have no use for a house except roleplaying. Seriously, there's no feature in your house that you can't get from other places. You use a house to store your [censored]. Not to mention that it overpowers Enchanting and Alchemy even more than it is now.

Unlock spells, I agree with. There should've been another way for non-Thief characters to open doors. I mean it's not like you're going to lockpick just to break in. There are locks that you pick to shortcut through dungeons or find treasure. I mean if I'm a Mage, I just want to cast a spell or if I'm a warrior, I just want to bash that lock. Both methods are loud so you can't use them to break into houses anyways.

Assassin's Creed much? Falling off great heights is stupid. Firstly it breaks immersion and secondly it makes you way too overpowered. You're jumping like you're on the freaking moon and you can run away from DRAGONS if what you're describing was in Skyrim. You'd never have any risk in the game considering you level speed by just pressing the "W" key on your keyboard (remember there is no attributes).

If acrobatics made its appearance, I would've wished for it to be more akin to Assassin's Creed where you could climb or something, not freaking go ZERO GRAVITY.

Try holding a 20 pound hammer, jumping, and positioning said hammer to your enemy's head. Not that easy. Oh and doing a 360 bow shot is for them Call of Duty people. Let's keep everything balanced.

Agreed. Hand to Hand is used more now anyways due to brawls and for those who don't want to waste potions on a brawl or isn't fluent in restoration magic, it's harder to win without a hand to hand skill.

In retrospective, most of your arguments are focused on overpowering two of the three already overpowered skills (Alchemy and Enchantment) or adding a skill that overpowers you compared to the rest of the game so much that you can literally complete the game by pressing "W".

I could not give a flying [censored] about balance I want my overpowered mages and super fast ninja warriors. We used to have a freaking flying prison and gods walking the land. This is TES not wow it only hurts the player that chooses to abuse the system if they choose to do so. But now all you balance sooks have gotten onto the TES bandwagon they are removing a lot of the fun choices that made the game enjoyable. I want my feather back, my scroll of acrobatics +1000, levitation, and all of the other things that have been removed in the name of streamlining.

Low fantasy? Seriously? The Elder Scrolls have always been high fantasy.

this x1000000000.........if you want "realism" in a video game, play a flight simulator. most, not all but most TES fans want high fantasy and god like characters. you know, the things the game offered us for the last 15+ years.

Dungeons & Dragons is high fantasy.

Elder Scrolls is not.

Even Middle Earth is somewhat low~ish, at least in terms of magic.

ok, thats interesting. please explain your definition of high fantasy.

Middle-earth is high fantasy, it's just very well disguised. Want proof?

Melkor creates the Misty Mountains to serve as his backyard gate and Sauron is implied to have created the Great Plague as well as the Dead Marshes. Gandalf's duel with the Nazgul is visible miles away. And the Witch-King makes two armies wet itself with his terror-aura, then blows apart the gates of Minas Tirith with a lightning bolt.

"You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Ud?n. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."

Yes, I know the quote. But magic in Middle Earth is very subtle, that's why I actually labeled it low~ish, because of its subtlety. Fireballs, arcs of lightning, walls of conjured ice don't happen all too often in Middle Earth, the magic in Middle Earth works on a more subtle layer. It is high fantasy in regards to the story, characters, etc, but in the magic sense it's not very high.

High fantasy, at least in my opinion, is where magic is very prevalent, something like D&D. D&D magic can do practically anything, you can polymorph yourself into a dog, you can create an elevator, you can even create a house using magic complete with furnishings and a butler if you wanted to. The rules of physics and the real world don't really apply to D&D, and when they do they can still be bended quite a bit, perhaps sometimes even breaking them. That can be said of magical spells and some of the races in D&D, such as things like Doppelgangers, Genashi, Elves, etc.

Middle Earth has high fantasy with the world and the races, like someone said battles being seen from miles away, an enemy causing terror in an entire army, but as I said it's magic use is somewhat low... that's why I said "at least in terms of magic."

TES is low fantasy in a worldly sense while their magic is less subtle than Middle Earth but no where near D&D.

I think DXHR did a good job of making their hacking minigame deep enough and rewarding enough that it was worth spending perk points on. I don't mind Skyrim's approach of making everything hackable with 0 skill, it's nice to not have to pass up locks, but it's unfortunate that they went that route but still felt the need to create a full skill tree for it. That actor value slot could have been much better spent on athletics or acrobatics.

Imperial wizards sunk the Sload homeland. Divyath Fyr planeshifts at will and is over 4000 years old. The Telvanni create towers out of mushrooms. Mannimarco became a god. The Dwemer want back into prehistory. A bored wizard turns an entire town invisible as part of an experiment.

While I admit I know little of what has happened in the overall scheme of things for the TES, when looking at gameplay... TES is still not very high fantasy. Player characters in D&D can, if they wish to, do all those things you mentioned. Can the same be said for player characters in TES?

My favorite perks in Oblivion where Athletics and Acrobatics.

When Skyrim was being covered they said "no more acrobatics and atletics" like it was a bad thing. I had no idea it was so disliked by the community.

Steed was my sign and I was faster than any horse in the game. I also would climb The Nine towers and found a way to keep Springheel Jacks boots.

EDIT -

On a side note, I created this VERY topic before the game came out. It turned into a 5 page argument about High Fantasy (which I just saw is happening here again) it got shut down.

People, you can turn invisible, you can shout to make a crazy fast dash, you should be able to jump higher and run faster. Not that far off from the other things in game.

Why are you comparing a PnP game with a computer game? Fluff in both indicates that wizards are easily capable of crazy-powerful hijinks, but gameplay and engine constraints mean that you're limited in a computer game. Did NWN have control weather, fly, planeshift, greater teleport or astral projection? All of which are available in standard PnP? Likewise, wizards in TES are capable of sinking islands and creating army-destroying plagues; but for the sake of gameplay you don't get to do that.