St Alessia is said to have become Dragonborn via blessing from Dragon Blood of Akatosh. She and her descendants doesn't have Dragon Soul correct?

Yes, probably. The Amulet acts like a soul gem for dragons (more or less), and Martins apoptosis wouldn't have happened without them.


How people get those shiny dragon souls kinds muddles things, though.

there is still quite a bit of uncertainty as to particular information on Dragonborn's, that we still often seem to debate every now and then..



is there actually a difference between "dragonborn" and "dragonblooded", or are they synonyms for each other?

how exactly do people such as Mankar retroactively "become" dragonborn without being blessed by Akatosh?

is the phrase also used to refer to those who were born in within the empire (as many argue the line in Nerevarine's prophecy "But Dragon-born and far-star-marked" refers to, despite never hearing that use anywhere else)

Programmed cellular self-destruction... that's one way to interpret what happened to Martin.

Tis the joys of trying to post anything on mobile. I meant apotheosis.

That one may be explained with the exact wording since it reads Dragon-born rather than Dragonborn, like how one might say that they are an American-born German. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Gilvas_Barelo supports this interpretation. As for why it's Dragon-born instead of Imperial-born, perhaps referencing the heraldry just seemed like a better idea than trying to describe a not-yet-existent government that shared its name with at least two others.

and yet, that use of the term is never used anywhere else

I know, and that's problematic. On the one hand, prophecy in fiction tends to have fuzzy wording. On the other hand, the rest of the prophecy is basically devoid of logical multiple meanings.

At first I thought that perhaps the Alessian Empire hadn't been founded yet so they didn't have a word that meant 'Empire' or 'Imperial' at the time which could justify the odd language, but a quick check shows that the First Empire was founded around five hundred years before the Battle of Red Mountain. The Lost Prophecy is rather poetic, though, so maybe it's just a stylistic thing.

I'm pretty sure that the prophecy just means "outlander Incarnate," as Barelo suggests. It might as well say "foreign-born." That's the thrust of the lost prophecy, and as Barelo suggests, part of the reason it may have been lost in the first place. A Dragonborn Nerevarine isn't an affront to the traditional interpretation of the Nerevarine prophecy, but a foreign-born Nerevarine is.


Since the Amulet of Kings is essentially an Aedric artifact, Camoran (possibly with Dagon's help) simply changed its nature to allow himself to wear it, similar to how Nelacar can make Azura's Star hold black souls or how Logrolf the Willful can rust Molag Bal's mace. Presumably it's incredibly difficult to exact a larger change (like, say, turning Azura's Star into a throwing weapon). Camoran couldn't destroy the Amulet because utterly destroying a Daedric or Aedric artifact is nigh-impossible (see "Admonition Against Ebony"). Since it can't be destroyed, he keeps it on his person where it's safest.

Martin draws explicit parallels between Aedric and Daedric artifacts. It's unlikely Martin destroyed the Amulet utterly; rather, he "consumed its physical form," but the Amulet, unlike a Daedric artifact, has no deity ready to reform it.

If one considers Lorkhan's Heart to be similar to Daedric and Aedric artifacts, Martin's use of the Amulet is similar to the Tribunal's use of the Heart to attain godhood, except that they were careful -- small doses to be replenished -- whereas Martin had to use all of the artifact's power at once, which (in a sense) killed him.

"Most people consider Martin's... transformation... a religious or political event, but what interests me is its metaphysical implications."

I always thought the Amulet of the Kings was kind of like an Akatosh's divine identity pass for Emperors. When you can wear the Amulet of Kings, you can light the Dragon fires from Temple of the One and gain sorta like a recognition for Akatosh to do his thing with Oblivion Gates or what not.

I think that the Amulet of Kings doesn't make someone into a dragonborn but is more of the key to unlock the latent abilities of a dragonborn, kinda like what we did in Skyrim. By defeating a dragon and absorbing the soul of a dragon the LDB's powers were activated in a way but the amulet is a safer way to activate the powers due to dragons essentially going extinct.

I believe you don't just become a dragonborn like that, it's something you're born with given the importance of souls in the elder scrolls universe, most things can change but I believe souls are the only thing that stay the same for eternity.

It would also explain Tiber's dragonborn status being achieved at Sancre Tor, the most likely place the Amulet of Kings would be. It IS the burial place of the Reman Dynasty and was most likely returned there after the Alliance wars.

i can see that as a possibility.. however, if his commentaries are to be believed, Mankar found some way to "become" dragonborn and thats why he could wear the amulet.. makes me wonder just what the extent of the knowledge the Xarxes actually carried was..

True, I could be wrong and iirc there was a theory that Mankar Camoran achieved CHIM. This is shooting myself in my own foot but CHIM would be one of the things that can actually change the nature of a soul.

It's also possible that Mankar was born a dragonborn which would be kind of a fun theory and would make sense for a broken and insane time god.

The St. Alessia whole story is pretty complicated and messed up. I'd suggest go find it on Imperial Library or UESP, rather than ask someone here, including me.

We know that Tiber went from being a psudo-Aedra Dragonborn to a full fledged Aedra and the Champion of Cyrodiil became a Daedric Prince despite apparently having been fully mortal prior. Additionally, It's not much of a stretch to assume that all mortals are Aedric to some tiny extent, like a stage between the Earthbones and Dragonborn. Perhaps the Misterium Xarxes had information on how a mortal could become more in-touch with their et'Ada side? Instructions on how to perform minor forms of ascension, like mortal to Dragonborn, though probably not the complete ascension that resulted in Talos.

hmm.. CHIM.. may provide a bit of insight as to how he was capable of having his own personal Plain of Oblivion

Mankar is also heir to the original owners of the Amulet of Kings, or Chim-el-Adabal, going by the Nu-Mantia Intercept (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept). The Amulet was the Stone of the Tower, which was originally owned by the Ayleids. Akatosh/Shezarrine only gave Alessia the Amulet after it had been taken from its previous owners.


In short, Mankar may have an earlier claim to the Amulet than the heirs of Alessia or Tiber.


Was Alessia Dragonborn? No, probably not, but there are situations where that does not seem to matter regarding the Amulet. It's a bit of a magical MacGuffin.

i suppose thats a possibility, but you have to admit that "Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire.", sounds a hell of alot like how the LDB would learn Yol Toor Shul

Or that he was meant to have a different role than the one he took. He is supposedly a Camoran, the royal line in Valenwood. Maybe Auri-El had a different destiny for Mankar, before he turned to Mehrunes Dagon? Wouldn't be surprised if there was an Elder Scroll that foretold a very different path in his life. Since the Scrolls show possible futures and pasts and all of that.

Come to think of it, he is contemporary to Tiber Septim. Maybe his original destiny was in some way related to that.

Before the Camorans ruled in Valenwood, they were the first dynasty of Ayleids that ruled the White-Gold Tower:


"As such, the Merethic Era extends from ME2500 in the distant past to ME1 -- the year before the founding of the Camoran Dynasty and the establishment of the White Gold Tower as an independent city-state." - Before the Ages of Men

Miraak, Alessia, Talos, 3 self proclaimed first Dragonborn. The question is, if you can be one of 'em, who'd you choose to be ?

My take on what happened to Martin? http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Dragon_Aspect (or something like it) to the Nth power, amped up exponentially from all those Dragonborn souls in the Amulet of Kings.

It's something completely unique to Dragonborn. Mortal Thu'um users can't use it because they're mortal souls. Dragons have no use for it because they're already dragons-in-body.

That statement from Before the Ages of Men did not mean the Camoran Dynasty ruled White-Gold Tower.

Depends on how you read the sentence. Anyways, it makes sense, as the Ayleids were said to have fled into Valenwood after the slave revolt. I believe there is another reference to the Camorans initially being an Ayleid dynasty in the Camoran Usurper, but I can't remember right now.

The sentence is clear given the following the context. The reckoning of the First Era started when King Eplear founded the Camoran Dynasty in Valenwood.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Valenwood