I was thinking about this the other day, and the only way to really balance out the three playstyles is to make it so that the damage from magic is overpowered compared to the damage of the stealth and melee classes. Destruction spells should be far outclassing the damage of daggers and bows (non-sneak attack) and swords and maces, because the other playstyles have compensating skills like sneak and armor that a mage doesn't have access to. Yes, there is invisibility and the Mage Armor perk and all that, but even using those spells, a mage can't be effective as a warrior or stealth character.

Thoughts?

...What?

Idk if it should be overpowered per say, but I will agree on that destruction in paticular should be a lot more powerful at high levels than it currently is

Oh yes. There is a huge difference in bending reality to your whim, and stabbing someone in the back. That difference should be damage output. Mages are so pathetic in vanilla. I know, I should use enchanting, but bandits should not be taking 15 expert fireballs before they die.

Marcurio doesn't seem to have any problem with destruction. Perhaps the people whining about it should take him as a follower and see how he wields magic - might learn a thing or two.

i wouldnt call it overpowered tbh it does do a lot of damage at early levels but that can be said for alot of things should you manage to come across the gear. thing about spells is they are increadibly easy to come across i found a good number of some of the best spells when i first started but even then you want to stay out of the way as much as possible because the cloth armor doesnt offer much protection at all and you die within a few hits. it could be considered balanced because of the low damage resistice or it could be considered underpowered in reguards to the other TES games skyrim does have the least number of spells and abilities for a mage then anyother after all.

I can't stand Marcurio. J'zargo has taken down dragons while I've been stuck in scripted conversations though. Plus he uses bows. You could say he's a destruction mage... *glasses*
YYYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

Also I think people are misunderstanding OP. His wording is a bit off. He's not saying he wants Destruction to be overpowered, he's saying he wants it to be more powerful. Overpowered is generally taken to mean "it is inherently more powerful than any other way of playing, and turns the game easy mode," he's saying "destruction should be stronger so that magic isn't UNDERPOWERED."

And I'm inclined to agree, free casting (which all NPC's seem to have) is really the only way to use a pure mage effectively.

No...he's saying that destruction spells should inherently have a higher damage value than weapons used in a stealth or combat role, which means it would be overpowered by the strict definition. It would eventually balance out though once you reached higher levels, and be on par with the other roles by that time.

Its a good idea but I'd rather have damage scale up with skill, like other people before this have suggested, as it allows you to deal damage more effectively as you level without making you too op at lower levels. Even better would be destruction damage from your spells leveling with your actual level.

It doesn't need to be overpowered... just more viable.

Yeah...my understanding of the OP is that he thinks stealth and warrior types have more diversity of tactics available, and so mages need just raw power in their favor in order to make it balance out.

I think destruction damage is fine if there is any way to amplifies damage like in Oblivion.

e.g.
Weakness to magic/fire/frost/shock spell - yea i know there is poison for it, but seriously, if I play a pure page not spell sword. What do you want me to put my poison on?
More effective spell type - in oblivion I can make some spell with damage over time. It is quite effective because 5sec 10 damage spells is much cheaper than a spell than 50 damage.
More variations of spell for each rank - Maybe having spell like flame in beween apprentice and expert. This allow a higher damage input with less magicka cost

Mages are already way over-powered.

Where should I start?

- They are the only people who can have up to four companions (legit)

- A master illusionist can make almost any enemy remain calm, run away, or attack their nearest target.

- They have little to no difficulty chasing deer after attacking them at low levels, because they can either make the deer attack them and easily kill them, or just throw a fireball in their general direction.

- They can wear robes and have no movement problems and still have a high volume of armor.

- They can heal themselves or their team mates, and they have complete control over most undead.

- They can have weapons that weigh nothing, and unlimited amount of arrows even if they aren't carrying any.

- Their shouts just make their magic abilities even more powerful.

- They can turn invisible anytime they want, with no Shadow Stone or a limited array of potions.

- They can deal with any enemy on an elemental or ranged level.

- They get to have the most fun and be more creative than a Warrior or an Assassin.

I think that just about covers it.

Ahaha hang on what. I totally agree with both of your other points but that's exactly what the concentration spells do, cheaply casting a lower amount of damage over time. I believe with aspect of terror and augmented flames the flame spell is... 23? damage, might be off a bit, costs like 3 magicka a second at 100 Destruction and with novice casting perk, and the expert fire spell factouring in aspect of terror and augmented flames does 100 damage. That's five seconds to match the best fire spell (firestorm's charging time gives it horribad DPS and it's broken if you try using it in actual combat).

You're forgetting something.

Each thrall and human companion can summon an atronach or raise another undead, and you can ride your horse into battle then dismount while the other catch up. That's eight followers. Not to mention essential quest ones that might follow you without replacing your normal follower, making it even more. For that matter, the ritual spell works on unlimited marks, though only for one minute a day. You can lead a small army.

And if your thralls are vampires that raise vampires in a room of dead vampires... well, I heard you liked bloodsvcking beasts of the night.

Nothing needs to be overpowered. Perhaps improve it, but not to the point where you're a Divine.

That is true, but what I'm saying is you can have at all times two atronachs/corpses, a companion, and a dog. The matter of which is you'll have at least four if not more in very common situations. I guess you can count a horse too, but those things are almost useless.

Ever used Shadowmere? She's a natural tank. She regenerates like an hundred health a second or something and has quite a bit to begin with, too, then hits pretty nicely. [She also makes a good meatshield in mounted combat.]

If you are having issues, get the Ritual stone. Kill a bunch of enemies in a group, then use the ability to raise them all from the dead. The risen dead arnt permanent, but they last a good amount of time, and youll have your own personal army.

I once had about 10 risen zombies fighting for me. it was bad ass

Indeed. Shadowmere makes the other horses look like toy ponies.

Shadowmere decided he didnt like me and dissappeared from the game

Ah, Shadowmere. Where are thou Shadowmere? Is thou bugged and has disappeared from the face of Nirn? Right I am. Shadowmere has to be one of the most bugged things in TES.

My friend lost her for a week and figured she'd died and he'd forgotten about it. Turns out he'd taken another horse in the wilderness, so she disappeared from the game world, then since he couldn't find her had bought another horse. When that horse died, Shadowmere reappeared at the stables. That may or may not be your issue.

Not overpowered but I do like my mages to be glass cannons. They hit hard but break easy. I find that my mage is the glass without the canon haha. I do hardly any damage and I get killed in 1 hit. This would be fine if I could kill hard and fast as well. I just started a new mage on Master and I can only do a little amount of damage before I'm out of Magicka so I've been struggling against multiple enemies. I usually cast flames because it's my cheapest spell right now. I tried Firebolt but I can only cast like 2 and it barely hurts them. I just do nothing to any enemies at the moment. It's my fault though. I chose to play on Master and only wear robes and use magic only. I just have to kite and hope I don't get hit before my magicka regenerates.

I also don't use followers which probably doesn't help. I did recently just get a flame atronach which is a good distraction but it uses up more than 3/4 of my Magicka right now.

Let's look at each individual school and determine if it's overpowered:

Conjuration - can be incredibly strong, two dremora lords make short work of anything, they also are unaffected by the difficulty slider. Now can it be overpowered? Hell yes. The dead thrall spell with high level enemies, let's use forsworn as examples. You can have two forsworn ravagers which dual wield and use a bow, you can smith every weapon and armor piece and enchant them all, you then end up with followers that kill everyone in two bow shots as they're unaffected by the difficulty slider.

Illusion - one word, mayhem. When perked up even as a non-vampire (25 base + 12 = 37. Then +10 against humans or x1.25 against undead) it affects human enemies up to and including level 47 and undead enemies up to and including level 46. As a vampire and when taking the perks as a necromage vampire the spells affect everything that isn't immune. Level 47 is enough to affect bandit marauders (25) arch level warlocks (46) and just about every human enemy that isn't a hold guard. The level 46 undead affects all draugr deathlord, all vampires except volkihar (48) master volkihar (53) and the two new dawnguard high level vamps. So you have a spell you can cast at the beginning of a dungeon, has an incredibly huge radius, so enemies tear themself apart before you even get near.

Alteration - paralyse. Arguably the strongest spell in the game, renders enemies useless for 15 seconds with the perk (increased further with necromage). I don't think I need to explain why that's incredibly strong.

Restoration - well I'd say indefinite healing to be powerful, potions run out, magicka doesn't (it does, but it regenerates straight away). It's not overpowered in the damage sense, but it's strong enough.

Destruction - the crux of this thread I'm sure. 90 damage spells (100 incinerates with the aspect of fear perk, 105 with the perk as a necromage vamp) is high enough. Let's look at most enemies:
- Bandit marauders 450 health so 5 expert spells can take one down, 10 spells (9 with incinerate) on master. These spells can be fired incredibly fast, so you can take that BM down in mere seconds on master.
- Draugr deathlord, with necromage and perked fire spells, these things go down in less spells than the bandit marauder. So we're talking seconds to take one down.
- Vampires are weak to fire, and spells are boosted by necromage, so like draugr your incinerate is hitting at least 200 damage at every shot, 550+ per dual cast. These spells absolutely destroy these enemies.
- High level dragons, these things are damage sponges, huge health pools and all you have to boost your spells is the weakness they have to one element. But with constant firing of single spells you can take these down in a good 10-15 seconds on master, which is good enough.

Now destruction isn't as strong as melee that's been crafted to be strong, but that's the terrible crafting system being overpowered, not destruction being underpowered. To be honest destruction outclasses archery in every non-sneak situation, you can cast so many spells on the time it takes to load a fire a bow. The real problem is the magicka cost of the spells, but the damage over time is strong even on master. Most people who say stuff like 'destruction is weak' I doubt have even used destruction at high levels, well I have plenty of times and the damage is more than enough for the highest levels on master.

The game needs some serious balancing, especially reducing the effectiveness of the crafting system, but none of the magic schools are underpowered.