bump

I really love perks, they grant some cool things that you can't just buy at a store, and they force you to make hard choices when it comes to building your character, rather than just becoming master of everything. I would kind of like to see more flavor perks, like the type that add roleplaying elements rather than just pure +X% gains. Fallout was good about that.

At first when getting accustomed to the new leveling system I was a little unsure about the whole idea of only being able to improve your skills beyond actual training by only choosing one perk per level. I was just a tad concerned this would take a long time to get the bonuses I wanted for my skills.

But as I leveled up a few more times and got used to it, I really have come to like the leveling system a lot. I knew the character and class-type I was going for as a ranger, with a bow, one handed sword, and shield. Other skills I wanted were of course sneak, and speechcraft to have an effective communicator character, and to a lesser degree light armor. With these main skills in mind I really had to think about what I wanted to prioritize to shape my character how I wanted and be on my best game. I remember one specific instance where I became a level 9, was in the leveling screen, and I had to pause and really think and ask myself, "What do I want to go for?" I like this kind of decision making that leads to more careful consideration of how you're going to mold yourself. So as I leveled (I am a 10 now) I picked the first perk for each skill I knew I was majoring in (lol sounds like college) and from there its a matter of what is more important at the current stage. Since I'm mostly using my bow at distances and sneaking to get the edge on my enemies, I'm perking up ( :thumbsup: ) my archery. I opt for my melee when is necessary, and practice it enough to keep me evenly leveled with my archery, but I'm holding off getting most perks for it yet just because it isn't as vital at the moment. Same with block; just perked enough so I take less damage when blocking. Sneak I'm perking more, since I got what was a main goal of mine for archery (the eagle eye perk) and now I can put more focus into that. Speechcraft isn't super important yet because at my level and point within questing I have had few needs to persuade anyone. Light armor; I mostly wear regular clothing, except for more heated fights, and since regular clothes don't count as light armor any more I've been able to get by without putting many perks into it so far.

I guess this system will work out great for you if you know what you're going for, and can figure out what to prioritize. Really, I feel like this system is as good a method as it gets.

I don't like the removal of attributes and I feel even more restricted in what I can do with this new system.

So is the problem that once you've committed to a given perk, it's allocated and can't be taken back? Or have I basically misread the argument here?

Because classes and attributes were totally more reversable and it made you change your character in the middle...

Do you really need "almost seem to" in that sentence? I thought that this was the only purpose for skill levels (esp. for weapon skills.) As far as I can tell, having a high One-Handed skill level doesn't allow you to do more damage.

Edit: I know crafting skills benefit from skill level.

As a result of the perk system, I feel like its only viable to play as either a pure mage, pure warrior, or pure assassin.

Yeah, Beth TOTALLY cut classes out of the game. :rolleyes:

I also miss my luck attribute....

could not disagree more
previous tes games expected you to know the game before ever playing it
choose the wrong minor or major skills, you're screwed
especially in oblivion with those pesky multipliers, grinding to get x5 for the win XD

here you can just use skills that you like and it's quite apparant what you need to improve as you go along

I recently obtained a sword that I really liked, but due to all my perks being in 2H, I am not using that sword.

I also am not using my dragon bone shield due to all my perks being in 2H.

So to answer your question, yes.

You can not like the previous system, AND not like the current system, and have an idea for a new and better one, you know.

Anyway, I changed my mind in the middle of my playthrough of Oblivion, and went from relying upon bows to relying upon daggers, instead, with my sneak mage. I didn't make conjuration a major, and it was great as a minor.

Rather, I could use whatever skills I wanted in Oblivion, and change my mind whenever I wanted, there, but here, Perks are forever. I can't just play the way I want, I have to pre-plan my character from the start.

By your rationale, you should hate this system, too.

My problem is that perks are a level-based system that undermines the entire concept of the get-better-with-use philosophy of the game.

Unlike Oblivion, where the only real way to improve skills aside from attributes and equipment was to just use your skills.

Now, however, skill levels make little difference in the face of the huge effects that perks have upon your game. If I level up by raising two skills, but put all my perks into one skill tree, that one skill will be massively powerful, while the other will be barely more useful than when I started. The amount of use you actually put into your skills doesn't really matter anymore, because perks are all-powerful.

I would rather see perks be a function of use, with a possible option of having to choose to specialize in one aspect of a skill, as opposed to the "pick which skill tree you want to make overpowerful"

Bumping this in the hopes of getting more votes.

Not really. It's a pretty fair gradient if you ask me:
Q: Perks are Awesome:
Agree Strongly
Agree
Neutral
Disagree
Strongly Disagree

And I say they were a good thing, but I wish there was a way to "backtrack" on perks that stop working out. And some need to be re-shaped.

I like how it allows you to define how your skill mastery affects you, and makes skills "Branch" instead of just being linear race-to-the-tops.

the lockpicking skill tree is worthless, combine it with pick pocketing
you should be able to go backwards once reaching the peak of the perk tree, example, if i go light armor, once hitting dragon i should be able to go backwards to daedric.

I am of the opinion that the perk system as implemented is just bad game design.

Skills provide little benefit for leveling up past the perk requisites. That would be fine if you gained a perk ever X skill points and not every level, you could still have diversity in perks as well lets say there are 15 one handed perks and you get a perk every 15 skill points and one extra at 100, so you have 7 perks out of 15. The reason why you need the kind of system I described instead of the once a level system is it means that any skill you are leveling but not perking is actually just a pointless grind, which is not something you should design into your game.

If you were going with the once a level system skills should provide the solid meat and potatoes of the skill and perks should provide added benefits both to skills and to things that are not skills. This system would add a bit more freedom in perk design, they could be tied to a skill level, or multiple skill levels, or to no skill at all.

I am sure there could be other valid options, but Bethesda's system isn't a good one. That isn't to say you can;t have fun playing in it, but I have fun playing AD&D and its rule set is a bit screwy.

Yes, I think that it might be better to retain a sense of specialization within skills, but where your perks came only from the skill ranks you earn in that one skill, and cannot be divided up into whatever skills you want. It would make more sense to have a list of 10 perks for every skill, and then make it so that, even at rank 100, you could only pick 6 or so of them. You'd have to completely restructure the way the prerequisite chains work, or else hitting the top of the perk chains would be impossible, of course, and I do believe that would be an improvement, at that.

I want the old Oblivion system back. WAY better. Except for lockpicking.

What do you single out about lockpicking?

I like the system. Stuff I use goes up fast, stuff I don't use doesn't. If I need to learn about something, I go get some training...sometimes that takes a while for me to get where I wanted to be, and takes a lot of effort to get there.

I haven't heard of anyone graduating college or uni after only a few days, so I guess the levelling, skilling and perk system makes sense.

This system is much MUCH better than the insanely worthless crap that was Oblivion. Perks are awesome, but then I am a dedicated Fallout player (from Fallout 1 onwards).

I'm talking about the perks system, not the skills system.

I'm saying the perks system does not suit the skills system as it currently stands because perks do not go up on the skills you use the most - just the skills you allocate the perk points to.

I picked the third option.

Giving this another bump

Perks really didn't add anything meaningful to the game. I find it was a bad idea taking all of the % increases and making them only available at breakpoints as lump sums. There really isn't any good reason that 99 Destruction has the same Master level spell costs as 1 Destruction and suddenly the costs can change at 100. The perks are in essence a big pile of false choices because you don't have a choice in taking +20% damage for Archery when you primarily use a bow or reducing spell costs for any caster school.