im on kaldwen bridge shooting the river crust with a pistol. in the distance i hear the guards saying something like, "someones there" but i dont see them, nor the markers white or red (usually when someone notices something u can see them even thru walls) does this count as being spotted? also sometimes a guard with have the white which i knows they they are just alert, but sometimes it will flash red then go away. does this count as well?

The markers briefly flash red each time the awareness level increases, but quickly fade back to white. The ONLY awareness level that counts is level four, at which point the markers light up red and then "shatter" and vanish. An off-key piano chord plays when this happens as well, so you have clear audio and visual signals that you've been detected. It's important to note that the enemy MUST SEE YOU to gain level 4 awareness. No amount of noise will count you as being detected, it will only cause them to try and investigate. The men you hear remarking that they hear the shots, however, are not in a position where they can get clear line-of-sight on you, so despite hearing the shots and commenting, they cannot actually detect you.

What I don't get, is why can't the developers be consistent with this. All of what you've said above is very nice, indeed. But then, I can be perched a few meters above an enemy, ready to crap on him, if I wanted to, and have a patrolling guard come my way, and not notice me, even though the area and walls behind me are well lit (enough) to make my silhouette practically peck their eye out from a distance. Nothing. Poke my head around a corner, come practically face to deformed face with a guard a few meters away and...nothing.

As I've complained in my first post, a few minutes ago, some stealth elements and moves are neat and would be even better if they had been developed or tweeked more, line of sight/vision cones. And I seriously doubt it would have required considerably more effort on the developers part, especially vision cones. Just extended them. Or are they extended? At higher difficulties? If so I just start a new game on the hardest difficulty. How much more perceptive are guards at higher difficulties? I already refrain from using potitions and avoid open confrontation, so guards doing more damage and potions and food healing less and restoring less magic is not an issue.

The problem with having "realistic" vision is that it would make the game very irritating to traverse. There is yet to be a game released that does stealth realistically, and there's a reason for that. It's not fun.

I think they could have tightened up the stealth more, myself, but only marginally. A few more non-lethal options, and a slightly enhanced (not realistic) vision cone would have been great. I remember on the first mission proper, right at the start, I'm choking out a guard, and from the bridge above, being able to see in broad daylight that a guard is being accosted, none of the three guards reacted at all. That was a bit disappointing.

There is the odd facepalm-y stealth oops, but they're not that common, so I can forgive the few missteps.

I can kind of understand how the guards don't think to look up, though. There's no reason to suppose that someone's jumping around on street lights, for instance.

Sure, but even when they're 20-30m away, they don't have to look up, they just see a dude on the lamp post and go mental...or just shout and ask what I'm doing...with a mask...and glowing hands, or crossbow in one. "Me? Nothing." Would be an interesting conversation. And very brief.

This is very true. The problem is inconsistency. You can often climb on top of a cabinet two feet above a guard and he will never see your hulking, trench coat-wearing self perched atop the antique showroom piece. Other times they will spot you instantly. Same goes for fences - if it's bars or a chain link fence, sometimes it will completely obscure you, other times it just won't. Occasionally guards will spot you through a tiny crack in the door or window that would be pretty unlikely, sometimes they will tolerate you walking circles around them for a minute straight.

There also need to be more non-lethal options. Deadly players can use rat swarms, grenades and other powers to effortlessly clear out enemies, making the game's difficulty largely a joke. Yet stealthy players don't get access to gas grenades, noisemaker devices, grappling hooks, and other stuff... all you get are takedowns and sleep bolts. Granted, you don't *need* those other things due to Blink, but there are definitely far fewer options if you want to be sneaky, and aside from the ending you really aren't rewarded for your much, much greater efforts..

I agree that there should be a few more (non-magical) non-lethal options. But I'll point out that Devouring Swarm can be used for stealth playthroughs, too-- the guards don't know where the rats came from, and if you place them among three or four guards, the rats will die before any of the guards do; it gives you time to go through an area unnoticed or at least unharrassed. Dark Sight and Blink are obviously stealth tools, although they can also be used violently. Possession and Time Bend are also great stealth tools. Five of the six active powers can be used non-lethally. As can whirlwind, I guess, to knock a guard away so you can scamper across an area without him attacking you.

So all of the active powers can be used in a stealth playthrough, you just have to use them appropriately.

My second playthrough is a stealth one, and I'll be picking up Time Bend and Whirlwind first, since I didn't buy those on my first playthrough. It'll be interesting to see how they fit into a stealth playthrough.

Whirlwind isn't going to be much use for a stealth run but Bend Time is very good but and is the *most* useful when you have both levels of it unlocked.

As you may have read in my other thread,, I'm actually annoyed that this chaos system is actually forcing a non-lethal approach. Though, you're right that most of the character's arsenal is geared towards lethal combat, most of it is effectively rendered pointless. You can use the crossbow to make noise, firing at a wall, and make enemies run off to check it out, actually. Taht's not much, though.

And yeah, I also meant to note the inconsistency in the way enemies tend to detect or not detect you in similar situations. In my experience, that is also reminiscent of Bethesda's AI. Though, Arkane's is an improvement for the most part. For example, sneaking above an enemy, and not being immediately noticed, or not at all, is a welcome improvement. In Bethesda's games, I poked my head out from a rooftop or cliff, and the enemy below me almost always immediately went ballistic. Or would have. In some key aspects, the stealth system is sadly and disappointingly lacking. The leaning out and peeking through corners and cover, while the enemy is only a few paces away, facing you, is easily the most noticable one. I don't know, am unsure, of other guards will find their buddies in those big trash conainters, if I dispose of their dead or unconscious bodies there. If they actually find them, I think that is annoying and clever at the same time, actually.