Hey this guy and his clearly biased and illogical reasoning doesn't speak for most of us .

Is Fallout about the BOS then?

Look I'm trying to be amicble here, everything you've said is pure speculation and it hasn't thus far stopped you; I am trying to judge your theory, a theory which is severly under-fleshed out. I cannot be persueded by half an arguement and what the Enclave wants to do is pretty fundamental to further speculation on it's composition. Your saying the group existing, your saying that they want to rule America - those are both speculation, all I'm asking is why which is pretty important.

Speculation is what we do and I seem to remember you doing a lot of it with us. We have blanks in the story, we have scraps of infomation therefore we build a picture from that based on what we have. I have my relatively simple theory, the War happened, the Government basically failed to maintain order, regrouped and slowly became the Enclave we see in-game; I have my evidence in-game and I am quite happy with it as an origin.

By saying that you just showed you don't.

Fallout is about humanity, its ideologies and rebuilding the world.

You think Fallout is about the Brotherhood of Steel which is absolutely wrong.

And just so you know this is called a debate over the ideologies (you know, the ones that are a centeral focus of the game) which is all fine and dandy until somebody like you makes a blunt, biased comment like this.

And what is with typing like you're texting somebody? Do you use a mobile device?

BoS in:
Fallout 1 - A massive super mutant army approaching? Here, take these three troopers who won't even follow you inside the enemy base after you wipe out the 3 door guards.
Fallout 2 - A massively advanced psycho army approaching? Here, take this combat armor in exchange for those Vertibird plans. Now get lost, punk.
Fallout 3 - A massively advanced psycho army, AND a massive super mutant army approaching? Screw this man, we stay holed up in our bunker while you do all the heavy lifting, contributing ZERO to the war effort. And thanks for the purifier, by the way.

If Fallout is about the Brotherhood, Nineteen Eighty-Four is about the proles.

In my speculation, I also try to go by in game info, behavior, etc.

What you are asking for, is the origins of this group, what their agenda was, etc, and that is a whole new level of speculation, where I can't draw upon anything in game, because we don't know any details on the make-up of the pre-war government.

I will say this: the purpose of government, in the USA, is to serve the people. Officials are voted in by the people, local, state, federal. The Enclave does not seem to care about the people.

LT says well that is because they are not citizens. I disagree. There is nothing in the Constitution that says in a time of war, people cease becoming citizens. He also claims the USA ceased becoming the USA. Well, what makes us the USA? According to LT, it is the government. Again, I disagree, and say it is the PEOPLE who make the USA, and it is the government, created by and for the people, to serve the people.

The Enclave thus abandoned the people. By choice. They made no relief effort. They were in a position for peaceful relations with the people, but instead chose to serve themselves. Instead of say, researching a cure for "mutant problem" they chose to eliminate everyone, but themselves.

Anyway, I gave you a rough guess as to why this shadow government appeared. Possibly a power struggle with commonwealths and the fed. I'm going to assume they were on side with the commonwealths, only because, generally, corporations are in favor of a limited federal government and less regulation, and the Enclave clearly has a lot of corporate influence. However, it could be the other way around. I will assume that is correct though, as it explains the Enclave symbol of the stars surrounding the E.

Btw, that symbol is kind of a clue that the Enclave existed pre-war. IMO.

Umm FO2: it just a scout...and you get PA, which who cares, but useful in trade, the ability to get stat increases, and MOST important, a Pulse Rifle, the best weapon in game. Congrats, you can now kill Enclave in your sleep, and swim in the ash.

Ps. You keep the plans, he makes a copy. Pretty fair trade if you ask me, seeing how you give up nothing

The Enclave's legitimacy is nothing I'm able to comment on, nor is it really why I chose my viewpoint. Though I do agree with the sentiment that we have no clue as to the nature of pre-war U.S. legislation and with LT that the pre-war U.S. were pretty much [censored]s anyway; I am of the point that they're legitimacy is as ambigious as the Shadow Government theory and nothing anyone is able to really comment on based on canonical info - we simply believe what we believe.


Okay I will definately suceed to one thing, their being a logo for the Enclave definately proves that it exists in some capacity as an entity; however I don't think that there stars can represent Commonwealths though as there's only 12 in the Enclave logo - but still 13 in the U.S. Commonwealth Flag. That being said I might be inclined to chalk that up too Bethesda incompetance as it makes sense as an idea. That the Enclave was a pre-war Federal Government power-group aimed at keeping the Commonwealth in line?

I always hated that symbol anyway as it's completely illogical, Fallout 2 certainly proved that the Enclave uses proper U.S. iconography - we notably and secondly that the U.S. Army still exists.

Its not a matter of in a time of war people cease becoming citizens. If you read my post, this is what I said:

Those citizens during the Great War were certainly citizens. Their children were as well. However, based on current United States nationality laws, the third generation of wastelanders were not United States citizens because the area they lived in was no longer the United States as a sovereign territorial entity. Not just because their was a war, but because the United States no longer existed in the area they lived. Their parents had not had prior residence in U.S. territory.

You can argue some pseudo-emotional crap about how they were U.S. citizens "in-spirit" but that doesn't make it so.

I thought the 13th star was replaced with an E.

Perhaps this signifies the Enclave as unifying the commonwealths, perhaps in opposition to the fed, OR the Enclave as "replacing" the fed. Again, who knows, but I gave a rough theory as to why this shadow group emerged.

Btw, they have that symbol in FO2. If you "look" at Enclave troopers, it says there is an insignia on their APA and their combat armor.

Or perhaps its meant to signify that the Enclave is the post-war continuation of the United States Federal Government.

Well on the Commonwealth Flag there's 13 stars around the larger one and in the Enclave symbol 12 stars around the E. Could just be a mistake on Beths part.

It says an unfamiliar symbol; could just as easily be the Commonwealth Stars IMO.

And how exactly does it cease to be the USA? Because there is no federal government? That isn't what makes this a country. People, by right, can have state and local government.

Or maybe the Enclave didn't recognize one of the commonwealths? Maybe that is the reason for the shadow group existence, they were at odds with what one of those stars represented.

Seeing how, I believe, there are pre-war regular old commonwealth symbols around the wasteland, on posters and such, wouldn't the Chosen One recognize the commonwealth symbol as at least something familiar?

No what ceases to make it the USA is that the United States as a sovereign state does not exercise political control over the region. Independent political sovereignty is what makes a state a state. The NCR for instance, is an independent entity and exercises political control. If the NCR loses territory to the Legion or if it would dissentegrate, those individuals would no longer be NCR citizens after a certain point (depending on NCR nationality laws). If the state dissolved completely then their citizenship would be null and void.

A real life equivalent is the events of the Yugoslav independence wars. When the government of Yugoslavia essentially dissolved into the myriad of states which now make up the Balkons, those individuals living in the territories ceased to become citizens of that state. They became citizens of Serbia, Croatia etc.

But if there is no government, than there is no state. So in a way, yes. Assuming the Enclave is not the United States Government, then there can be no United States citizens.

Put it this way. Try to get into a country with a passport from a state that no longer exists while claiming to be a citizen of that state. You'll be laughed out of customs.

He hadn't left Arroyo before the game starts IIRC, and there's no real emphasis on the whole American thing in those games - like the crazy women who thinks her Spring catalouge was coming in Fallout 3 - like nobody ever mentions the United States; that and http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/1/1a/FO02_NPC_Frank_Horrigan.png&imgrefurl=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Frank_Horrigan&h=414&w=803&sz=584&tbnid=6svkucrk_V84yM:&tbnh=62&tbnw=120&zoom=1&docid=RXWQNWCGZGbQoM&sa=X&ei=voOhT72DE8bN4QSw85mNCQ&ved=0CDoQ9QEwAQ&dur=233 did have the full U.S. Flag on his Armour.

I realize that. I'm talking about posters and such CO would have seen on his adventure. But, I can't remember for sure what all is around. Maybe there wasn't, I can't remember.

Nahh but many Enclave fanatics (guys like u idk if u are one of THOSE though) they like to hide the bad things about the Enclave and start spilling [censored] that they are better then everyone else cause they are the government and thats why they have a good reason of killing every other [censored] that is trying to survive

Dude I'm no apologist, anyone who isn't a real supporter and anyone who supports them out of IRL patriotism is just weird... I'm not even an American.

Im saying ur a enclave fanatic not one of those guys that are people that want to hide the truth. Sorry if it sounded like that bro. I wanted to help the Enclave when i first started out in fallout i believed their [censored] up propoganda. Stupid me

Oh right. Yeah I'm one of them good fanatics .

By the Nine, I learn more here than I did this semester.
*Eats popcorn while reading all of this*
Now if only the Enclave was a valid join able faction next game, preferable in the Neutral area. , what am I saying, they are soulless Aholes bent on killing those who *gasp* actually did their best to try and survive, and they just came and said "All of this is mine! Muahahaha" without the creepy laugh, it would be awesome if they laughed all creepy like though.

But like I said, if they were a valid faction that was in the neutral area, I'll join them.

Are you like psycic or something u just read my mind bro

are these mods available?

I would like to add to the discussion about the Enclave being the government. Okay the zax series of computers was developed by Vault tec and used by the federal government and by the american military. Eden was a zax computer and was built before the great war, he was placed in a American military base and fallout shelter for military officals the base known as Raven Rock also known as site R before the great war. He says himself " I saw as the remnants of the government retreated to the west coast" this quote matches up with the Enclave being on the oil rig and being at Navarro. Being built before the great war to monitor Raven Rock a top secret military base I think he would know if the Enclave was the real government or not.