My character started out as a sword-swinging rebel and matured into a scholarly mage. She (female Redguard; I just like the way the model looked in character creation) considers Winterhold her true home. She also shares my native distaste for being railroaded into doing nasty things to ordinary people. Not so much morality, per se, though that plays a part -- merely 'they don't have it coming and this grosses me out, and I don't like having my free will taken away. Blow me.'

When I ran into the werewolf child-killer in jail, I watched him escape (Upset #1), got involuntarily stuck with a cursed ring (Upset #2), and was sent to murder a beautiful, noble wild animal to please a demon prince (Upset #3, the more so since I hunt every year in RL. ). At that point I reloaded, walked into the jail, and burned the b*stard down. I don't care if his excuse is that he ate too many Twinkies and was on a sugar low: Child killers die in any world in which I have a say. The guards didn't seem to care at all. Rough justice. And I was perfectly content.

When I got stuck in a house and forced to kill an innocent man in self-defense, I told the demon prince in the cellar I didn't want anything to do with him, got out of his little trap, and walked away after picking the house clean.

When I watched a mad old wizard turn to dust to bring some kind of arcane demon Bible to light, and was told by said demon that my free will was an illusion and all I had done was merely serving him, I laughed and walked away. I'll keep that book safe just to despite him. If need be, I can always swim out and drop it in the middle of the ocean.

The demon prince of insanity actually seems to be a likable chap, so long as you catch him in a good mood. All he did was send me to play games and give me a staff that roughly corresponds to the Wand Of Wonder in old school AD&D and send me on my way. He didn't want my soul, or my servitude; merely a bit of entertainment. No bones to pick there. I even found myself liking the crazy old fart. He was like the Mad Hatter with super powers.

When a demon prince demanded I slaughter the eccentric curator of the Mystic Dawn museum, I told him to p*ss right off. When he sent two demons in evil spikey black armor after us, I FUS RO DAH'ed them into the cliff face and ran like ten b*stards. Both the curator and I got clean away. All's well that ends well... especially since I stole everything in his museum for my private collection at the College.

When yet another demon prince tried to svcker me into making a bargain with him, I told him no, it's okay, just take your pet talking doggie back, I'm doing the world a favor by getting him out of it. He merely pouted and gave me a neat-looking mask and told me to GTFO. My soul was never up for grabs. Heh.

When some cannibalistic [censored] tried to recruit me into her cannibal-coven, I brought her the intended sacrifice and wiped out the whole lot of them. He was grateful for it, too. More rough justice.

When the Companions tried to recruit me for were-wolf-dom, their rationale being 'if this brings success in battle, how can it be evil'?, I demurred and walked away. It's evil because it binds your soul to a demon prince who sends some people on canned hunts and others to rip apart little girls. I wish you well and want no part of it.... which is pretty much the same as I react in RL when someone passes me a joint. I prefer beer anyway. My choice.

I tell you all of this, fellow Dragonborn, so you can understand how utterly nonplussed I am at being told by some middle-aged dark elf that I need to sell my soul to a (supposedly morally neutral) demon prince (princess?) so I can keep my cool Batman armor and avenge the insult to the Thieves' Guild. She asks me if I'm ready, and I am presented with a single scripted line telling her 'yes I am ready.' At which point I said out loud OH NO I'M NOT, escape-keyed out of the dialogue, saved the game, and shut it down.

The hell do I do now? I was having lots of fun skulking around up to that point, but I'm pretty anol-retentive about freedom of choice. Particularly when it comes to what happens to my freaking SOUL for freaking ETERNITY. Only a narcissistic child would not. I have outwitted and/or defied every supernatural entity that tried to make me do yucky stuff against my will. If need be, I have no problem reloading the game and continuing my merry way from a point in time before I get my Nightingale armor on (for that is the true power of the Dragonborn. Reconnaissance by prophecy, I've come to call it.) I don't mind scripted quests; they are part and parcel of my destiny.... but my soul bloody well belongs to ME. That is non-negotiable. Guarding holy places, even shadowy spooky ones? That's fine. Forking over my immortal part so I can be her slave for all eternity? NOPE.jpg. And from a game-design perspective, this is the only Daedra that doesn't let me escape or tell him/her/it no, I don't want any.

Can I get my soul back later? Can I escape at this point and put my Batman armor in the wardrobe at Winterhold next to the Mystic Dawn robes and all the dwarvish artifacts and the Wabberjocky or whatever the hell it's called? What do I do, gentles all? Advise me. I don't mind spoilers, if it helps me keep my free will in this world and the next.

You're Dragonborn, that means Akatosh gets first dibs on your soul. You can promise Nocturnal you'll give your soul to her, but you'll just be trolling her.

Also, that means that if you want to keep your soul, then, yeah, you're screwed...

You find a way out of lycanthropy in the course of the Companions quest line. And also help a few other of your guildmates out of it too.

And, as Muibadorei said... above all, you're the Dragonborn.

Meh. I find that thoroughly unsatisfactory. Some of you may feel comfortable at the idea of having half a dozen deities fighting over your souls after you lay down your mortal coil -- or even amused. I don't.

svck it up and take the armour!

I guess you just don't complete the guild, don't you need to become a werewolf to finish the companions? Same deal, either put up with the lame design choice to force you to give up your soul, or don't do the quest.

I loved this post. Yes. What you said.

Except that I don't understand how you saved the curator, as I've played it twice and don't seem to be able to escape out of being locked into conversation mode until after the daedra kill him. Maybe it's where I'm standing when the conversation triggers or something? I figured he got what he deserved for hero worshipping the people I killed LAST game, and the broken dagger gets permanently teleported back to a locked case, so whatever.

What I don't understand is the lack of free will throughout the game. Not just the daedric quests. Hey, yesterday I was expected to turn over a city to a mob boss, another city to a slaving evil jerk (no choice there if you want to finish the MQ) and then butcher and betray the only creature that's been straight with me in the entire game. Bethesda's writers seem to have the attitude that its "realistic" to have to choose the lesser of two evils, and have no hope of actually influencing anything for the better. I say, who stole their sweetroll? Geez, arguing with fanatics on HuffingtonPost makes me feel more heroic than playing this game. There, at least there's a POSSIBILITY of changing someone's mind.

How about these as dialogue options: Gee, Tullius, you ever think that maybe the Empire would go over better with the natives if you didn't hire jarls who use the Darth Vader theme as their ringtone? How about we NOT put Maven in charge, but instead drop her in a pit somewhere and find a nice beggar or someone to run things? Or pretty much, hey, anyone but Maven?

Hey Delphine, you see this ebony-plated fist? Wanna eat it? Go ahead, tell the Dragonborn what I have to do some more. Okay, good, now that we've got your priorities straightened out, how about you and Max Von Sydow go whack Titus Mede whatever and put the rightfully born Emperor back in charge, so I don't have to join the Dark Brotherhood and do my own dirty work? That work for you, or are you too invested in murdering worms to do your job?

I'm getting to the point where I want to end the Kalpa myself just to see all these people get what they deserve. What exactly about this world is worth saving?

But only cool people have Darth vaders theme as their ringtone!
Besides, the Empire could do much worse, they could put me in charge.
I'm a "Ends justify the means" guy.

Nearly everything worth having in this game requires a Faustian bargain. If you want to thumb your nose at authority, all you can do is walk away and leave one more unfinished line in your quest log.

This is why I find it more fun to play a megalomaniac than a hero in this game. At least the megalomaniac gets to see how the quests finish.

It doesn't work like that. Your soul is a fragment of Akatosh, Akatosh (with the rest of the divines) are dead, their essences spread out across the mortal races. The Daedra do what they do to try and get the little chunks of dead gods to become a part of them, add their power to their own. If you die "clean" your soul will simply be recycled: there's noplace for the fragments of the gods to go to (with the notable exception of Shor, who is regathering pure fragments of his soul back to himself in Sovngarde) but if you bind your soul to a Daedra, when you die they'll claim it. If you bind your soul to two daedra, they'll tear it in half. Three, you'll be torn to thirds. So on and so forth.

If you don't want to be bound to a Daedra forever, don't do it. Don't accept the Nightengale armor, just leave the guild to rot. At least in the companions questline, you have the opportunity to not only free yourself from Hircine, but several other Champions as well. Hell, you may or may not have allowed the warriors of Sovngarde to invade Hircine's realm to recover all the souls of the companions trapped there. If you really like sticking it to a daedra do the champions questline. Nowhere else to you get to screw one over so royally.

Also, if you like making demons be your b**ches, might I suggest the master-level conjuration quest at the Wizard's college. Good times.

If you're talking about Paarthurnarx, that's optional. You don't have to do it.


Maybe, but any daedric prince doesn't stand a chance against Akatosh. You can be assured that you won't have to do that whole eternal watch thing with Nocturnal.

And yet Akatosh was able to make the pact with Alessna and protect the world from the realms of Oblivion and at the conclusion of the third era Martin became his Avatar drove Dagon back to Oblivion and forever sealed the gates of oblivion. Aetherius contains multiple realms that serve as an afterlife one of them is Sovengrade only some souls are recycled. Daedra talk big about claiming followers souls but Hircine is the only one I see with real evidence of claiming souls when the person dies due to lycanthropy infecting the spirit.
I have no idea where your getting this fragments bit


You can refuse to do as the blades ask, you can also refuse to take part in the Civil War and still complete the mainquests keeping the Jarl's as they are. Some of Ulfric's replacements are just as bad as Tullius. I didn't think miss law-giver was a compatent leader anyway. At least with Maven in charge the power in Riften is honestly displayed.

Giving up the Blades (who never seem to get it that you're not just furniture, even though they should be loyal to you) or Paarthunax was not a choice I felt like making. That was my real Kobayashi Maru moment with this game. Bethesda, 50 bucks is not enough for you to have the right to force me to pick which of two ways I feel bad. Didn't spend the money to feel bad. Fortunately there's a console command which allows you to ignore the Blades' request and move on.

The jarl of Markarth gets replaced by a nasty Silver-blood whether you play the Civil War or not. It's the one part of the peace treaty that can't be avoided. And yes, Ulfric is just as bad. That's my point. EVERYONE is bad, and where a better game would allow the player to influence whichever side he picked to do what he wanted, this game gives the player no influence at all. You're truly a pawn, no matter whether you can one-hit a dragon with an enchanted daedric warhammer or not.

The lesson they seem to want to teach is, "If you want to be powerful, you're going to have to realize that the powerful are just as pathetic as anyone else." It's an ugly lesson, even if it were true, and it's not true. Who's writing this stuff?

Not really. The lesson is "hard choices are hard because not everyone is good or evil." You just have to do the best you can.

The choices they offer are false choices, ignoring the obvious decent middle choice in every case.

And, not to drag the conversation too far from the original topic, there's a distinct lack of "I'm out of here," options in response to offers of daedric quests. Maybe I don't want my quest log to record for all eternity that I'm supposed to go eat someone or butcher someone. Maybe I don't want to have to hit escape out of a conversation because my only option is, "Gee, killing my buddy sounds swell, meet ya there!"

Game writing has come a long way since Oblivion. It's been done well, and it's getting to the point where pretty much everybody does it better than this. The idea is to give the player the illusion of control. Even if all options lead back to the same result. In Skyrim there's not even the illusion. And this used to be the series that bragged about giving players real choices.

O.P. although it's an interesting story, you haven't yet mentioned how you screwed over Nocturnal of the TG or Sithis of the DB, as well as a few others. Will be interested to know how you screw them over as your exploration leads you to more discovery.

Actually it is true. In reality it's worse than that in some cases. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Want to do good? Escape with Ralof in the beginning. Work at the mill. Sleep in the Gerd's house. Chop wood. Sleep in Gerd's house. Chop wood. Sleep in Gerd's house. Go hunting. Never do any quests.

The Amulet of Kings is a soul gem, containing the souls of all the dragonborn emperors who came before Martin, all of which were fragments of Akatosh. When Martin shattered the amulet he released those fragments which fled to Martin, which gave him the power to Mantle Akatosh and become his avatar. Akatosh has no power except the power his fragments agree he has because the fragments of Akatosh are Akatosh. Akatosh (like the rest of the divines) does not exist except in his fragments. With Dagon defeated, Martin likely CHIMed then zero-summed (realized he is everything and everything is him and didn't have the willpower to say "I AM" and so he returned to everythingness instead of becoming a new god), and all those dragonsouls were free to reincarnate as their favored forms: dragons. Yes, Alduin's army exists because of Martin's defeat of Dagon.

Now, by the end of the game, the Dragonborn is a damn-big fragment of Akatosh, due to all the dragon souls he's absorbed. It's possible he'd be able to Mantle Akatosh himself, just as Martin did, so he might be able to hold himself together when the bits of him that want to go and chill with the various daedra try to run away from all the dragon-ness. Chances are good though, that like Martin, you'd Zero-Sum and all the bits of your soul would go wherever they want to go to, the dragony bits to reincarnate as dragons (or, rarely, dragonborn) while the wolfy bits go off with Hircine and the Shadowy bits go off to Nocturnal.


It's an issue of likenesses. If your soul is filled with Madness, when you die it will seek out Madness, and it will wind up with Sheogorath. If your soul is filled with beastial instict, it will seek out beastial instinct and it will wind up with Hircine. If you're both mad and beastial you'll wind up torn in half between the two


The Monomyth explains it best, I think. When the world was created, Lorkhan tricked the Aedra (the eight we remember and the countless we've forgotten) into forming a permanent bond with Mundus, but they quickly discovered that this made them mortal. The only way they would survive is if they were to split their souls into smaller fragments. So they did, but not before dragging Lorkhan (aka Shor) down to Mundus with them. They divided and merged with each other countless times, and we were left with the Ehlnofey, the ancestors of most of the sentient races alive today, including Men, Mer, and Dragons.

In general, like seeks out like. The reason the Dragonborn can absorb the souls of Dragons is because his soul is 100% Akatosh, the same as Dragons. The dragonsoul sees the Dragonborn standing there and is all "cool, that's Akatosh, I'm Akatosh, we should become one big Akatosh." and globs onto him.

In any case, the TLDR version is: Aedra have no power except what mortals give them because they only exist as mortals. The Daedra have power, because they are not divided, and act with one mind.

I vaguely recall the last answer you give Mister Sword-Bestowing Demon Dude -- I can't keep their names straight -- is something like 'I won't kill him, you monster' and his response is roughly 'LOL, die then.' Then the pair of death-metal freaks crash into existence. Then I flip out and hit the Z key, as we all do in moments of stress, and RUN. I didn't see what happened to Poor Mister Curator, but when I fast-traveled back to the museum I found him there safe and sound, and meekly talking about how curiosity killed the cat and he's learnt his lesson and won't go poking around in demonic antiquities anymore. The daedra must have chased me rather than him, and given that I ran straight off a cliff and did the fast-motion slide to the bottom they must have found it a difficult pursuit. At any rate, everything came out fine.

To get back to the query in my original post: I'm seeing anyone telling me that no, it's okay, Nocturnal releases your soul from bondage when you bump off the traitor and cleanse her sanctuary or whatever, so to hell with it. I'm gonna make a run for it and leave the Guild to their own devices. (svcks that I'm going to be out the only real source for lock picks though; you should be able to forge them.) The Nightingale armor goes in the wardrobe, and later on display in my house.

My original stand... stands. My soul belongs to me. Now and forever. Oh, and I understand at some point the Blades are going to want me to kill Dragon-Yoda up on his peaceful mountaintop. [censored] THAT. I can tell I'm going to have a whole catalog of unfinished quests by the time I finally finish exploring and updating everything there is to be done in this remarkable world. My character isn't a goody two shoes, but she is thoroughly decent. She is not anyone's ideologically-motivated psychotic... and neither am I.

But yeah, it's a choice.

Do you [censored] over Nocturnal or do you [censored] over Mercer Frey?

I choose Mercer Frey.

Out of a solid 8 times playing this quest line, I've managed to let Siluis "get away" 7 of those. I've always had my toon standing on the side of the altar where she places her hands on it to talk to Dagon. The 8th time I did the same thing, toon in same place, but for some unknown reason Siluis decided to attack her. So she had to kill him and THEN kill the dremora. *shrug* No clue what was different that time.... oh, well, maybe because that was my first Khajiit?

Oh, and Rivenshield (GREAT name, btw) - I actually never pay any attention to the "who owns my soul" stuff. I'm not much on that sort of crap IRL, and it certainly doesn't affect me in a game. Other than that however, I do as much good in this game, and as little harm, as I am able to. That means no seriously evil daedric quests - no Boethiah, no Nocturnal, no Vaermina, no Molag Bal. I do Azura, Meridia, Dagon (because I always tell him NO, and kill his dremora then loot his shrine), and Sanguine (who could resist Sam? That questline is SOOOO much fun!) I'm probably missing a few - oh.... Hircine. Nope, no thanks. Don't do werewolves - so, nope.... don't do the Companions once it hits that point. Don't do vampires either - other than kill them. Only good vampire is a dead one.... Mostly I make this game work my way as much as possible. I wipe out the DB, never get involved with the TG. I kill mobs that attack me first. In the case of the Thalmor (only good Thalmor is a dead one....) I make sure to select the "right" dialog option so they attack me (I believe it's the one about "what's wrong with worshipping Talos"....)

It's all in how you play it. Or for those who are really into RP, how you spin it.

Evil is a lie! There is no evil! If there is evil, then it's the Nine. Vigilants of Stendarr are evil, and the Silver Hand are butchers. They must die.

Im almost the exact opposite. I like performing tasks set by the daedric princes in hopes of getting not only a physical reward, but favour from the prince. My character right now is real shadowy theif type, and i have no problem becoming a servant of Nocturnal if it means becoming richer and having better luck in my career as a thief.

Maybe im just some sort of "chaotic-neutral" madman who doesnt care what happens to his soul when he dies....

I'm pretty sure I've only heard of Lorkhan being dead. I thought the other Aedra (Well, the eight) drew back from their creation in order to maintain some semblance of their divinity although that the effort of creation still managed to confine them to their own planes of Oblivion (which mortals see as the planets). And apparently, despite Lorkhan being dead, he still managed to appear to Alessia.

Divinity is a wierd thing, huh?

As far as the Daedra are concerned, my main character likes winning their favour, although sometimes he's swayed towards acting against them for the sake of others. Sometimes. For him, pledging his soul to Nocturnal is taking control of his afterlife. The Evergloam is as mysterious as its master, and he likes the idea of a neverending adventure, so he has no qualms with offering himself to her. I do wonder what would happen if he joined the Companions and pledged himself to Hircine too... xDD

Last I heard, Alduin's army does not exist because Martin destroyed the amulet, but because they were never dead all along. After all, their soul is still there, only that they have no flesh for it to possess. When the Dragonborn kill 'em, their soul were absorbed the same way people trap souls, only in this case, the soul is literally absorbed