Civil War, Facts needed : V

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:08 am

I decided to make this thread so other threads do not get derailed.

I am looking to have this thread be purely about the facts of the Civil War, so comments like "Elisif is a puppet" or "Ulfric is racist" need to be backed up with facts that prove that comment. In other words, it is not true unless it is literally proven that it is true, not by one's opinion.

So have at it, Stormcloaks and Imperials. Discuss the facts, and NO UNPROVEN COMMENTS.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:48 pm

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/439516/Skyrim/elisif_tullius_will_handle_it%21.jpg

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:50 am

I don't know, I can't see this thread getting off it's feet with no opinion. I just don't think there are enough facts to even go around.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:43 am

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/439516/Skyrim/elisif_tullius_will_handle_it%21.jpg

As in another thread, that is not hard fact that proves Elisif is a puppet, just means Tulius feels that Elisif may not be the right person to negotiate on behalf of the Empire. I am talking about Evidence that cannot be interpreted as something else, like something that literally says that Elisif is a puppet, not Tulius telling Elisif to let him deal with the negotiations.

I don't know, I can't see this thread getting off it's feet with no opinion. I just don't think there are enough facts to even go around.

that is the point.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:48 pm

OMG, let the war begin

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:23 am

that is the point.

Why make the thread then? I know I said make a thread about whether Elisif is a puppet or not, but that is literally what I meant. Make a thread where people can go and discuss whether they believe that Elisif is a puppet or not.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:17 pm

Why make the thread then? I know I said make a thread about whether Elisif is a puppet or not, but that is literally what I meant. Make a thread where people can go and discuss whether they believe that Elisif is a puppet or not.

I used the idea as a springboard.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:21 am

http://betweencontent.com/article-the-skyrim-civil-war-a-look-different-sides/ This is my collection of facts, for the msot part. A little new information have been added after it was written, like confirming that Morrowind is not a part of the Empire anymore, but overal it covers most aspects. Also, I am in favor of the Stormcloaks as of the time I write this post, rather than in favor of the Empire as it is stated int he article.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:05 am

http://betweencontent.com/article-the-skyrim-civil-war-a-look-different-sides/ This is my collection of facts, for the msot part. A little new information have been added after it was written, like confirming that Morrowind is not a part of the Empire anymore, but overal it covers most aspects. Also, I am in favor of the Stormcloaks as of the time I write this post, rather than in favor of the Empire as it is stated int he article.

You have the right to that choice, but the link is what I was talking about.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:27 am

I used the idea as a springboard.

To make a thread that you seem to already have thought would go nowhere?

http://betweencontent.com/article-the-skyrim-civil-war-a-look-different-sides/ This is my collection of facts, for the msot part. A little new information have been added after it was written, like confirming that Morrowind is not a part of the Empire anymore, but overal it covers most aspects. Also, I am in favor of the Stormcloaks as of the time I write this post, rather than in favor of the Empire as it is stated int he article.

Good read so far. This thread may have life yet.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:15 pm

You have the right to that choice, but the link is what I was talking about.

That didn't make much sense to me. I merely cleared up that the article was slightly outdated with concern to my position and to the new information that came with Dragonborn, to avoid confusion with other users on this site.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:37 pm

That didn't make much sense to me. I merely cleared up that the article was slightly outdated with concern to my position and to the new information that came with Dragonborn, to avoid confusion with other users on this site.

was talking about how it is a collection of FACTS. Not personal opinion backed up by evidence that is way too vague to be what one side says it is.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:53 am

OP, you might want to calm down a little. You're a bit jumpy. We'll try to keep it to facts, but a little personal interpretation is inevitable. Otherwise it's best to go read wiki's and imperial library to find out for yourself

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:10 pm

As in another thread, that is not hard fact that proves Elisif is a puppet, just means Tulius feels that Elisif may not be the right person to negotiate on behalf of the Empire. I am talking about Evidence that cannot be interpreted as something else, like something that literally says that Elisif is a puppet, not Tulius telling Elisif to let him deal with the negotiations.

that is the point.

Exactly. That peace summit was between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. A leader in-waiting filled with angst over her husband's death is not fit to speak on behalf of the Empire over the Military Governor of Skyrim.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:17 pm

was talking about how it is a collection of FACTS. Not personal opinion backed up by evidence that is way too vague to be what one side says it is.

Have you read the article? It goes over the negative and positives of both sides in the civil war in a fairly comprehensive manner. I think that there are few facts about the civil war, excluded whatever we learned from Dragonborn, that are not included there. That I actually elaborate on those facts doesn't change anything.

» Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:22 pm

was talking about how it is a collection of FACTS. Not personal opinion backed up by evidence that is way too vague to be what one side says it is.

The woman is a bad leader and can't lead on her own. Her idea of helping out at Wolfskull Cave is sending the entire Legion (there's only one legion in Skyrim) to deal with it. Tullius regularly dismisses her in Season Unending and Falk Firebeard as well as Byling, the court mage, and Erikur discuss how she relies on Tullius because she doesn't know how to lead herself.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:31 am

Have you read the article? It goes over the negative and positives of both sides in the civil war in a fairly comprehensive manner. I think that there are few facts about the civil war, excluded whatever we learned from Dragonborn, that are not included there. That I actually elaborate on those facts doesn't change anything.

On a side note, I read the article, and found it pretty interesting.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:59 am

The woman is a bad leader and can't lead on her own. Her idea of helping out at Wolfskull Cave is sending the entire Legion (there's only one legion in Skyrim) to deal with it. Tullius regularly dismisses her in Season Unending and Falk Firebeard as well as Byling, the court mage, and Erikur discuss how she relies on Tullius because she doesn't know how to lead herself.

Those do not prove that Elisif is in no way incapable of being a great leader though, and that Ulfric is the only choice. That is still merely opinion using evidence that you feel fits that opinion, that is too easily interpreted as something else by another person.

Go to Tdroid's link to see what facts look like.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:28 pm

Those do not prove that Elisif is in no way incapable of being a great leader though, and that Ulfric is the only choice.
That is still merely opinion using evidence that you feel fits that opinion.

However, I don't think the point is to try and glorify Ulfric (Well, for me it definitely isn't). I also actually do think that all this evidence points to Elisif not being the best leader.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:54 am

However, I don't think the point is to try and glorify Ulfric (Well, for me it definitely isn't). I also actually do think that all this evidence points to Elisif not being the best leader.

but neither is Ulfric, and still both are just as viable as the other. Treng and his posse make it sound like Elisif is absolutely incapable of ruling without being told what to do by the Empire.

Fact: The Civil War is designed to make both sides and both candidates look as viable as the other.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:01 pm

Well, it's been asked to judge on what's there and what we have seen of Elisif is that she's inexperienced and rely's on Tulius' assistance.

Hypothetically, who's to say

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:35 am

but neither is Ulfric, and still both are just as viable as the other. Treng and his posse make it sound like Elisif is absolutely incapable of ruling without being told what to do by the Empire.

It's true. Elisif isn't a good leader. The player is meant to decide between Ulfric and getting rid of a dying Empire or siding with Tullius to try and save it - all the while knowing that Nords will completely lose their independence if you do.

» Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:46 pm

It's true. Elisif isn't a good leader. The player is meant to decide between Ulfric and getting rid of a dying Empire or siding with Tullius to try and save it - all the while knowing that Nords will completely lose their independence if you do.

and the nord who do not want to even be involved, they lose their right of choice, so what is the difference?

when I think of a good ruler, I think of people like Jarl Ravencrone and Balgruuf, who look to their hold FIRST, and not let ambition rule them.

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:20 am

but neither is Ulfric, and still both are just as viable as the other. Treng and his posse make it sound like Elisif is absolutely incapable of ruling without being told what to do by the Empire.

Even if Skyrim was completely independent, I don't see Elisif being a good leader without almost completely relying on the people around her. She just doesn't seem to have it in her. I know this is completely opinion, but it is backed up by instances in the game. I really think the good example is when she tries to send the whole legion to deal with Wolfskull cave. I mean, I know she does it in good heart, but is that a good leadership decision? No, and if left to her own devices, she probably would have done it. Do you see what I'm saying?

» Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:39 am

and the nord who do not want to even be involved, they lose their right of choice, so what is the difference?

They make the choice by not acting. Seems to be self fulfilling.