Crashing that drives me nuts. (Player home) : V

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:56 am

This is driving me nuts beyond explanation.
Here is the full story:

I have been working on a custom housing for my character for a long while.
Doing some basic rooms, whenever I was in the mood for it. Lobby area, study, treasury, pool... No problems there.
Then, came the armory. Probably the most important part for my housing. Mannequins and weapon racks. And lots of them.
At first, it was fine. I had around 24 mannequins and around 200 weapon racks, and it was working fine. Until the day I added more.
Here is the thing that started happening:

Loading a savegame from menu right away would CTD a second or two on the loading screen.
I could COC from main menu.
I could load my savegame after I did the COC.
If I dropped ANY item, the game would CTD.
If I COC my character into the cell, and used any rack, the game would CTD.

So I have decided to start over, making only several armory cells.
Again, in the beginning, it was working. But as I duplicated a cell once, the same problem started occurring.

Long ago, I have read something about mods not working, if they are beyond a certain file size or whatever. Sadly, I could not find that forum post again. I would appreciate if somebody could like me to it.
If it could be of any help, the sizes for my mods are:
1st attempt: 262 KB
2nd attempt, start over, only armory cells: 261 KB

Does anyone have ANY idea whatsoever, what could be wrong?
Maybe amount of scripts from the racks?

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:08 am

200 weapon racks?! Damn man. Serious collector! :biggrin:

I do remember someone else talking about memory limits but I couldn't find it myself. That doesn't relate directly to file size. When you're in a cell, look at the title bar of the Render Window. It shows you how much memory it's taking to render that cell and how much more memory is available.

That said, I don't think the limit is rigidly enforced ~ they're more of a guideline. IIRC exterior cells are allowed more space. And I know some mods go past those limits. When doing so you start risking CTDs.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it the memory max might be system based. So if you have a killer rig you might be able to design things that lesser systems cannot run. Sorry. Rambling here ... this wouldn't affect you since you're the one trying to run it.

So back on topic. The first thing I would ask is are you using Roombounds? That is, are you able to break up this empire of racks into halls or wings? You could then throw down a couple of bounds to lighten the load. If the engine doesn't have to render and allow interaction with all 200+ simultaneously you might be able to pull it off.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:59 am

dear god, CTD or not, that is probably just way too many display furnitures for one cell. keep in mind those scripts usually contain a OnCellLoad or OnCellAttach function block, which means all 200+ are firing simultaneously when the room loads (regardless if they are disabled or culled by roombound, the function block still runs).

it is physically impossible for papyrus to run that many blocks of code at the same time, and with the way it threads the code, you are bound to get mess full of strange behaviors or flat broken equipment

.... ths doesn't even account for the possibility of what happens if someone chooses to fill all those display racks, and the cardiac arrest it will cause on system ram when it tries to load all those weapon/armor textures and meshes into the cell on load

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:14 am

dear god, CTD or not, that is probably just way too many display furnitures for one cell. keep in mind those scripts usually contain a OnCellLoad or OnCellAttach function block, which means all 200+ are firing simultaneously when the room loads (regardless if they are disabled or culled by roombound, the function block still runs).

it is physically impossible for papyrus to run that many blocks of code at the same time, and with the way it threads the code, you are bound to get mess full of strange behaviors or flat broken equipment

.... ths doesn't even account for the possibility of what happens if someone chooses to fill all those display racks, and the cardiac arrest it will cause on system ram when it tries to load all those weapon/armor textures and meshes into the cell on load

Well, that sure is a shame. Is there no way of getting them to trigger one after another?
Plus, the game crashes if I load my savegame, which is NOT in the custom cell. The game does NOT crash when I COC to the cell from main menu.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:28 am

check your papyrus logs, your CTD could be caused by overload from script/reference inits (which could run even outside the cell) as well as any error messages, uncleaned properties etc.

i have gotten mannequin error messages in my papyrus logs when i coc'd into riverwood even with no save load. my mannequins were all in a custom interior cell. multiply this sort of thing into an existing save game which accumulates all this junk over time, and it quickly adds up.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:35 am

check your papyrus logs, your CTD could be caused by overload from script/reference inits (which could run even outside the cell) as well as any error messages, uncleaned properties etc.

i have gotten mannequin error messages in my papyrus logs when i coc'd into riverwood even with no save load. my mannequins were all in a custom interior cell. multiply this sort of thing into an existing save game which accumulates all this junk over time, and it quickly adds up.

Thanks for the info.
And an honest, noob question: where do I find the papyrus logs? Can't seem to find any in game folder.

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:46 pm

open your Skyrim.Ini

under [papyrus] set the following

bEnableLogging=1

every time you play a game, it will create a text dump of all the script logs under MyGames/Skyrim/Logs/Script

the Papyrus.0.log will always be the most recent, the other 3 are the previous sessions

just keep in mind, as long as you have the logging enabled, it will tax a very small performance hit (usually unnoticeable if you have a moderate gaming rig), nothing as big as Fraps recording, but its still tax nonetheless.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:39 am

Thank you very much.

Tried it, here is the result:

Load game, drop item - CTD - No log

Load game, coc to the cell, drop items, use racks... everything working - load game - CTD

Here is the log:

Spoiler

[05/01/2012 - 11:04:17PM] Papyrus log opened (PC)
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:17PM] Update budget: 1.200000ms (Extra tasklet budget: 1.200000ms, Load screen budget: 500.000000ms)
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:17PM] Memory page: 128 (min) 512 (max) 76800 (max total)
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "CR04BrutePreQuestScript", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "QF_lorecraftViciousDaggerOnk_03002B08", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] error: Unable to bind script QF_lorecraftViciousDaggerOnk_03002B08 to lorecraftTEMPLATEOnkillSpawnerRecurring (02002C11) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "Dwemer_SenseLife", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "Dwemer_SenseLife_right", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "Dwemer_Goggles_Sense", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "Dwemer_Sense_right", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "Dwemer_Sense", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "followerwanderscript", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:20PM] Cannot open store for class "MidasLuggageScript", missing file?
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] error: Unable to bind script CR04BrutePreQuestScript to alias Brute on quest CR04 (00025231) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] error: Unable to bind script TrainerGoldScript to alias RecruitKyra on quest BTAMercDialogue (04020731) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] error: Unable to bind script TrainerGoldScript to alias RecruitVincent on quest BTAMercDialogue (04020731) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] error: Unable to bind script TrainerGoldScript to alias RecruitAephiah on quest BTAMercDialogue (04020731) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property ConcubineDismissFaction on script BTAconcubineScript attached to BTAconcubine (040158A2) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Alias_VendorSmith002 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootVendo_01015CA7 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootShelves (02F15CA7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Alias_VendorSmith001 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootVendo_01015CA7 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootShelves (02F15CA7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Alias_VendorSmith003 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootVendo_01015CA7 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootShelves (02F15CA7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Alias_PlayersHorse on script QF__01008B0F attached to stablesSkulik (48008B0F) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property ActionDualPowerAttack on script FireKnivesScript attached to (00000014) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property portal2Contrail on script portal2ControlScript attached to (35003320) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Alias_LootCaster000 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootOnkil_030029A9 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootOnkill (020029A9) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] error: Property aasixSceenAA on script aasixScript attached to aasix (03000D62) cannot be bound because (03005E9C) is not the right type
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] error: Property BSAbook on script DCVR_QF_BSArmorPerks_02006937 attached to BSArmorPerks (0E666937) cannot be bound because (040293BF) is not the right type
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property Alias_MarriageCustomHome on script QF_RelationshipMarriageFIN_00021382 attached to RelationshipMarriageFIN (00021382) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:21PM] warning: Property IdleCartTravelDriverEnterInstant on script DriveableCartMenu attached to (4000A9B7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:23PM] VM is freezing...
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:23PM] VM is frozen
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:23PM] Reverting game...
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:23PM] error: Unable to bind script QF_lorecraftViciousDaggerOnk_03002B08 to lorecraftTEMPLATEOnkillSpawnerRecurring (02002C11) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] Loading game...
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] error: Unable to bind script TrainerGoldScript to alias RecruitVincent on quest BTAMercDialogue (04020731) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] error: Unable to bind script CR04BrutePreQuestScript to alias Brute on quest CR04 (00025231) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] error: Unable to bind script TrainerGoldScript to alias RecruitKyra on quest BTAMercDialogue (04020731) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] error: Unable to bind script TrainerGoldScript to alias RecruitAephiah on quest BTAMercDialogue (04020731) because their base types do not match
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E798) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Alias_PlayersHorse on script QF__01008B0F attached to stablesSkulik (48008B0F) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] error: Property aasixSceenAA on script aasixScript attached to aasix (03000D62) cannot be bound because (03005E9C) is not the right type
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402CF78) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (04021CF0) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property portal2Contrail on script portal2ControlScript attached to (35003320) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property IdleCartTravelDriverEnterInstant on script DriveableCartMenu attached to (4000A9B7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Alias_VendorSmith002 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootVendo_01015CA7 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootShelves (02F15CA7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Alias_VendorSmith001 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootVendo_01015CA7 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootShelves (02F15CA7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Alias_VendorSmith003 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootVendo_01015CA7 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootShelves (02F15CA7) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property ConcubineDismissFaction on script BTAconcubineScript attached to BTAconcubine (040158A2) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Alias_LootCaster000 on script QF_lorecraftVanillaLootOnkil_030029A9 attached to lorecraftTEMPLATELootOnkill (020029A9) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin4 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin5 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin2 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property MannequinLoad on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest1 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Mannequin6 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Chest3 on script XMarkerLoad attached to (0402E79C) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] error: Property BSAbook on script DCVR_QF_BSArmorPerks_02006937 attached to BSArmorPerks (0E666937) cannot be bound because (040293BF) is not the right type
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property Alias_MarriageCustomHome on script QF_RelationshipMarriageFIN_00021382 attached to RelationshipMarriageFIN (00021382) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Property ActionDualPowerAttack on script FireKnivesScript attached to (00000014) cannot be initialized because the script no longer contains that property
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] warning: Variable ::FollowerWander_var on script WandererAliasScript has an invalid type followerwanderscript loaded from save. This variable will be skipped.
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:38PM] VM is thawing...
[05/01/2012 - 11:04:40PM] error: Property AKM_NonCombat_ViewMode on script AKM_Book attached to Item 1 in container (00000014) cannot be bound because (060123BE) is not the right type
[05/01/2012 - 11:06:24PM] VM is freezing...
[05/01/2012 - 11:06:24PM] VM is frozen
[05/01/2012 - 11:06:24PM] Reverting game...
[05/01/2012 - 11:06:24PM] error: Unable to bind script QF_lorecraftViciousDaggerOnk_03002B08 to lorecraftTEMPLATEOnkillSpawnerRecurring (02002C11) because their base types do not match

Does this mean bad business?

[05/01/2012 - 11:04:17PM] Memory page: 128 (min) 512 (max) 76800 (max total)

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:40 pm

man, talk about irony.

a lot of those errors are coming from my mod LOL (Black tower). how embarassing. i still havent released the cleaned up version of my scripts yet. *commences eating of own shoe*

it could very well be that my mod is contributing to your CTD issue. try uninstalling it and see if it still happens (use a COC from main menu and not a loaded save). an FYI though, while working on a new mod, it is always best to test it with no other mods loaded, and a clean COC from main menu. once it works nicely, then test it with mods and save games.

in the mean time, i better get cracking on that long overdue update.

i'll go hide in the corner, you can begin throwing rocks :blush:

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:45 pm

heheheh... the stoning of Amethyst. I have a possible suggestion and a question.

Suggestion: if you REALLY want to try to get all that stuff into one cell, I agree with Amethyst that it's simply too much, even for high-end systems. As suggested, you could break up the room with roombounds... but Amethyst is correct that the onCellAttach/load events will still fire; almost CERTAINLY causing broken furniture, etc. The idea I had would be to try and have each room's objects initially disabled, then through scripting (trigger-box in each doorway?), enable each room's objects as you come closer to it (while disabling the room behind you). I don't know if disabling things prevents their onCellAttach from running - so I would test this with a single object first.. rather than revamping the entire ensemble for nothing.

Another possibility is to 'convert' your interior into a fake one... ie: have an exterior worldSpace, but with interior lighting and walls to hide the empty vastness. This way, each cell could potentially load separately.. something which could be coaxed along with occlusion planes, roombounds, etc. If you go into an interior, the entire thing loads no matter how big; but exteriors are slightly different and you may be able to exploit that.

Question: How do we get rid of those "cannot open store for class" errors? I started getting these in my sailing mod, after adding a Papyrus fragment into the mix. I haven't looked too far into this yet (as the errors only seem to happen on start-up)... just thought I'd float it out there if anyone happened to know.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1370110-impact-of-system-stress-scripting-errors-on-game-performance/ is a thread about the 'none' and 'property' errors, how to fix them, what type of system can handle what, and other things of this nature, so you may want to check that out.

[EDIT: links in posts really seem to hate me on the first try]

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:47 pm

heh, but in my own defense, i only found out about those property cleaning errors recently. but still, the brutal face-palm-inducing irony is not lost on me. i promise my next mod will be much nicer lol

and btw, onload calls will still fire on disabled objects. as for worldspaces, typically multiple cells will load simultaneously, all depending on user settings in the ini. so this thing would probably have to approach blackreach massiveness to fully exploit the "streaming" of loaded cells, and the manny's would have to be spaced very far apart (breaking into the "inconvenience" territory). i believe all actors are immune to roombounds, but will be visually disabled in an occlusion box. scripts are pretty much immune to everything and are highly resistant to any kind of sequence managing outside of more scripts (from my experience)

out of all the display stuff, it seems that mannequins and bookshelves seem to hog up the onLoad the most. i dont even bother with bookshelves anymore since IMO the performance to benefit ratio is poor. i'm sure someone could write a much more efficient script for it

as for weapon racks, i recently wrote a brand new script for a weapon display system which i believe runs with less tax than the vanilla one, and it has no onLoad call. i can share it here if anyone wants it. it uses an invisible container instead of the awkward trigger-based, user-must-have-weapon-equipped style mounting.

going back to script based sequence managing, i found that it is very effective to either write a new script for the mannequins or extend the existing one, that overrides the oncellload so that it never fires (for the ones that are initially disabled). then copy the would-be load function in a custom function, and use a controller script to enable the mannequins and manually fire off the load function. the downside to this is it requires yet more ObjectReference properties which all need to initialize regardless, but property inits seem to be much less demanding than the default load call, although objrefs can remain persistent forever.

otherwise, you can use the "purgatory trick" and keep the unnecessary mannequins inside a purgatory holding cell, then use a property based MoveTo instead of the getlinkedref (which seems to not work properly when the linked items are not in the same cell). it's slightly less taxing to objref an xmarker than an actor i think.

the main downside to a trigger based script controller is that it will cause some systems to pause briefly while the functions run through their load blocks at the start of each trigger, so you would have to keep these groups at a relatively low number at a time. annoying, but at least its not a ctd

as for the cannot open store issue, i found that these are usually caused by something still pointing to a deleted script somewhere. in my case they were a bunch of quest fragment pex files that i didnt delete, but their pscs were deleted, or when you delete all the related scripts but some object is still pointing at them (maybe even a hidden point-to). it's like the script equivalent of the property error. seems to happen most on fragments and quest scripts. i would first run through all your quests and hit the compile all button on all of them then manually hunt down any traces of loose fragments that should be deleted. too bad there is no "use info" feature for scripts

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:13 pm

That's a great idea to have the mannequin 'reset' functions delegated to an 'on-strategic-script-demand' kind of setup, instead of auto-firing on load/attach. Although it may cause a touch of visual lag when Player first enters (party mannequins who 'run' back to their places when caught in the act). I haven't messed with racks/plaques yet, I've been procrastinating since my harrowing mannequin experience. Haven't touched bookshelves either... too many horror stories.

It's kinda krappy that there isn't a way to prevent script firings somehow (like initially diisabled). Maybe another way would be to put timers and checks in the attach/load events; to space out how many things happen at once... but that may cause more problems than it's worth. I still don't think anything's gunna help 5million objects in a cell.

I started another thread asking how to do the very thing you just describe (ye olde Obliv purgatory trick).. http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1370508-anyone-know-how-to-move-objects-from-non-parented-cells/ Everytime I try it doesn't work, talkin' bout non-parented cells or something like that; I'd have to go back and recreate the exact errors.. the old logs get overwritten unless you rename/move them. I can't move things from interiors OR exterior cells which aren't loaded/attached/parented/whatever... and I'd REALLY like to know how!!

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:49 pm

why not just give your purgatory a location, and the location parented to tamriel. ive never had those problems doing it this way

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:55 pm

I suspected a location may be the answer... yet another aspect of Skyrim that's new to me (from Obliv). Is that in an alias, or assigning it somewhere... or will it be self-evident when I look up info on locations? And what about when I'm in Tamriel... how can you get a location to be mobile? (eg: messing with distant objects without sending anything to an interior location; not that that's bad.. just wondering.)

Sorry for jackin up the thread!

» Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:41 pm

its pretty self explanitory in the wiki.

its actually an "object" you can create through the object window, it holds data such as parent cells, a center-location marker pointer so that skyrim knows how to make relative quest markers line up where they need to be on the world map as well as fast-travel horse markers, keywords for behavior manipulation (such as having a "player-owned" keyword that prevents enemies from following you into the cell, and also granting well-rested bonus instead of rested). theres a bunch of other stuff in there that you can use to synch with quest data like bosses for dungeons etc

the only caveat i can think of is to never use a custom location in a vanilla cell for an esm file (it will literally destroy your entire esm if you do, as in self-delete all the records)

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:22 pm

Thanks.

I knew about certain things with Locations... only enough to get my horseMarkers working though. Not enough to apply it to what I currently need.. heheh. It seems my personal policy of 'nothing Vanilla in an ESM' paid off once again! I haven't messed with keywords yet either, but they're fairly self-explanatory without having to look anything up (famous last words).

I posted the specific error I get on that other thread though.. it's either no parent cell or no 3D (I assumed because the cell isn't loaded).

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:08 am

Alright, it is very late and I'm very tired. Tired like the guard's cousin whos fighting dragons all day, so I will keep this post very short.

I have read everything you have said, and I thank you for all the good suggestions.
I am very interested and would love to try your script.

Perhaps by making a new script for the manniquins, we can achieve higher performance. Maybe something that could simply reset their position and toggle off their AI. Since they are just NPCs, they would keep the items in their inventory equipped.

I will write a proper reply as soon as I'm done was my exam.
And once again, thank you for all your suggestions.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:22 am

There are a couple other issues with mannequins (and actors in general) besides the Wandering Bug. You have the Dupe Bug (perpetually duplicates apparel) and the Naked Bug (actors remove their equipped items)... The Vanilla Mannequin Script Fix is basically what you're talking about. It fixes all the known bugs, fixes the broken Vanilla poses, and adds the ability to toggle AI. Aside from the AI toggle, and 10 poses instead of the 3 the Vanilla script had, it's just a basic fix... doesn't even use an ESP. (oh yea... it also allows weapons; why Vanilla filtered them out is beyond me... what were they THINKING, mannequins with armor but no weapons...)

But your CTDs should disappear (or happen less frequently) after you disable problematic mods, and fix any errors in your own scripting. If it doesn't, you're going to have to get creative with the scripting or 'break' your mod up.