Devils : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:54 am

In tamriel is there a diety which many people see as a form of devil or unholy superpower(besides Liches and vampires)?

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:09 pm

Dagoth Ur was referred to as the Devil more than once by the people in Vvardenfall.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:21 pm

In tamriel is there a diety which many people see as a form of devil or unholy superpower(besides Liches and vampires)?

There are some beings that certain cultures view as devils/evil/unholy superpowers, however, no, there is no 'devil' in TES lore. This also shifts into how there is no 'holy god' in TES lore; and there is no real good and evil (nor heaven and hell). TES doesn't draw those distinct lines, the good or evilness of a deity is dependent upon your perspective (even when it comes to liches and vampires)...

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:09 am

There are some beings that certain cultures view as devils/evil/unholy superpowers, however, no, there is no 'devil' in TES lore. This also shifts into how there is no 'holy god' in TES lore; and there is no real good and evil (nor heaven and hell). TES doesn't draw those distinct lines, the good or evilness of a deity is dependent upon your perspective (even when it comes to liches and vampires)...

Good and evil aren't dependent on gods. They're ideals.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:12 pm

N'Gasta calls himself a devil, but not the Devil.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:48 pm

Good and evil aren't dependent on gods. They're ideals.

Gods are dependent on ideals, however. And Nirn's mortals rely on gods to understand ideals. So if good and evil existed, there'd probably be gods for them. /blather

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:17 am

Good and evil aren't dependent on gods. They're ideals.

And???

I didn't say that good and evil were dependent on gods, but since there is no good and evil in TES that the gods are not good or evil, therefore since the devil is an 'evil' concept, there is no devil in TES...

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:37 am

Dark Elves frequently reffered to http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dagoth+ur as the Devil.

Other than that, not really.

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:47 am

therefore since the devil is an 'evil' concept,

Not to Satanists.

This of course proves that EVERYTHING is subjective and there is no way to apply a strict set of moral boundaries on anything, especially a pantheon of fictional gods.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:46 pm

And???

I didn't say that good and evil were dependent on gods, but since there is no good and evil in TES that the gods are not good or evil, therefore since the devil is an 'evil' concept, there is no devil in TES...

There is still compassion, benevolence, and selflessness, as well as malice, hatred, and selfishness.

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:11 am

There is still compassion, benevolence, and selflessness, as well as malice, hatred, and selfishness.

But no subjective good and evil, as the gods don't enforce those ideals. There is no hell to go to if you were evil, and no heaven to go to if you were righteous, only another shell of a body.

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:24 am

But no subjective good and evil, as the gods don't enforce those ideals. There is no hell to go to if you were evil, and no heaven to go to if you were righteous, only another shell of a body.

Molag Bal's sphere doesn't encompass anything outside of the normal concept of "evil"

Likewise, Mara and Stendarr encompass aspects of "good".

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:21 am

Molag Bal's sphere doesn't encompass anything outside of the normal concept of "evil"

Likewise, Mara and Stendarr encompass aspects of "good".

Drawing dikes on comic book characters lies withing Molag Bal's sphere. Evil?

And Mara is a polygamist, which I'm sure some folks would have choice words about.

Quit being so ingenuous.

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:42 am

Dark Elves frequently reffered to http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dagoth+ur as the Devil.

Other than that, not really.

And Nords referred to the Chimer as devils. And the Imperials refer to the daedra as devils.

Probably the term originated as a description for the daedra, which have also been referred to as demons (On Oblivion), as they can be, but are not always, appropriately devilish. Really, it's a cultural thing.

Oblivion has been synoymous with Hell in the TES 'verse for nearly ten years now (see Redguard). Same with daedra/demons (see nearly any myth about daedra or evil gods-- more than likely, it'll be referred to as a 'demon').

They are not the same, but they are useful for context, and denizens of Tamriel freely use all of the terms all of the time. When, like, talking about hell or demons, which they usually don't do at night when Oblivion is staring right over their heads.

It has nothing to do with dumbing down anything. In fact, it has more to do with widening the scope of what those concepts and beings are to the people that live outside their realms.

No need for a four-alarm fire. Again. Read more lore, people. It's why it's there.

The Sermons addresses the nature of their evil:

'But then why, you ask, do the Daedra wish to meddle with the Aurbis? It is because they are the radical critique, essential as all martyrs. That some are more evil than others in not an illusion. Or rather, it is a necessary illusion

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:06 pm

I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. - J. Robert Oppenheimer

Good or Evil? Lorkhan could have said it. So could the Selective. Or the Hiradirge. Kagrenac and Zurin Arctus for that matter.

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:29 am

Drawing dikes on comic book characters lies withing Molag Bal's sphere. Evil?

Perversion

And Mara is a polygamist, which I'm sure some folks would have choice words about.

So? Brigham Young was a polygamist, and being a Mormon, I don't think he was doing anything wrong.

Although the concepts of good seem to be distributed among the Aedra's spheres, while the concepts of evil seem to be distributed among a number of the Daedra's spheres (but not all the daedra princes).

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:34 am

Perversion

Perversion? Lawl. I'm not even touching this one.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:17 pm

So? Brigham Young was a polygamist, and being a Mormon, I don't think he was doing anything wrong.

you don't. 90% of the American population (then and now) does.

Diabella's sphere also includes 'perversion,' as well as vanity, lust, and potentially jealousy, all of which are mortal sins in Christianity. evil?

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:18 am

you don't. 90% of the American population (then and now) does.

So? That doesn't convince me. And it never will. And I'd love to give a refutation, but we're not supposed to discuss religious topics.

Diabella's sphere also includes 'perversion,' as well as vanity, lust, and potentially jealousy, all of which are mortal sins in Christianity. evil?

Not necessarily; the negative sides seem restricted to the Daedra, although the Daedra are not restricted to just the negative.

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:35 am

So? That doesn't convince me. And it never will. And I'd love to give a refutation, but we're not supposed to discuss religious topics.

Thus you are in the minority. In Nirn you would be an evil daedra worshipper.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:47 pm

Thus you are in the minority. In Nirn you would be an evil daedra worshipper.

A polite and well-groomed evil daedra worshipper.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:51 pm

In tamriel is there a diety which many people see as a form of devil or unholy superpower(besides Liches and vampires)?

That's pretty subjective; Lorkhan, for example, is adored by most men's pantheons while he's hated by most elven pantheons; closest thing to an elven "immortal enemy." As someone has stated, Dagoth Ur was quite literally the Dark Elven Devil. Other than that, the House of Troubles was considered the greatest immortal adversary.

Your best bet is to probably go and check out http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml at TIL.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:29 pm

Thus you are in the minority. In Nirn you would be an evil daedra worshipper.

Now you're just being ridiculous; I'd be more of a Dissident Priest.

Last time I checked, Daedra worshippers, like yourself, don't believe in the concepts of good and evil.

A polite and well-groomed evil daedra worshipper.

Thanks for the compliment...I think.

» Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:17 pm

Not necessarily; the negative sides seem restricted to the Daedra, although the Daedra are not restricted to just the negative.

wait, wait, wait. drawing pencses on comic book characters is perverted while teaching erotic moves in brothels and selling your body for god is not? :huh:

» Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:16 am

wait, wait, wait. drawing pencses on comic book characters is perverted while teaching erotic moves in brothels and selling your body for god is not? :huh:

Last time I checked, the Talos Cult was planning to assassinate the emperor. Just because a god has a few evil worshippers doesn't make that god evil.