Collision Detection is a Must For Epic PVP - An Open Petition to the Dev Team

I had great hope for ESO's open world PVP when some of the first videos to surface gave very subtle hints that collision detection (CD) might've been in play. But then I saw a video interview with Brian Wheeler (lead PVP designer) where he stated that not only would there be no collision detection, but that you can't have it in a PVP game.

What?

I've played quite a few MMOs with player based collision detection. I've played quite a few without. When it comes to open world PVP there is no contest: games with collision detection have truly epic PVP battles; games without collision detection end up as mashed up zerg-fests with very little real-time combat tactics.

Not only can you have collision detection in a PVP game .. it makes the PVP.

I'll address the concerns about having collision detection in a moment. But first, the obvious benefits.

With collision detection, tanks have very real roles. A properly organized group can use tanks to block the broken down entrance to a keep, for example, with healers in the background trying to keep them alive in the face of the punishing dps they're likely receiving from the attackers. Those same attackers will have to punch a hole in that tank wall, or work on finding another method of entrance. The fight that's going on at the tank wall is intense: attackers trying to use knock back to push tanks away, or focus fire dps enough to take out one or two and force an opening that lets the attackers in. In the meantime, the defending force has to try to repel the main force while simultaneously keeping an eye on other ways into their keep .. the attackers may decide it's worth the effort to break off a splinter group that can stealth/port/sneak in a different way and put pressure on the back line of healers and ranged dps that are supporting that tank wall making it easier for their main force to break through.

And it just gets better from there. Another short example: using terrain or structures to bottle-neck the opposing force is a key tactical play that an observant and aware battlefield commander can use to great advantage (or, conversely, can avoid if he/she understands how it'll affect their forces).

Without collision detection, players just run through one another like ghosts. At the very least, that's destructive to immersion. But what's far more damaging to the game experience is that it removes any tactical play to the game. Whoever brings the biggest army wins. There's no sense of truly epic battle. It's nothing more than a swarm of players all running around zip-zapping each other. Terrain, structures, positioning, all these things play very little role in a battle without CD -- breaking line of sight is about the only consideration.

The only complaint I've heard about collision detection is the fear that trolls/griefers will use it to block access to NPCs, important parts of towns, etc. This is a non-issue. Or, at least, it's been a non-issue for every game I've played that incorporates CD.

1: If the concern is griefers blocking access to necessary NPCs in non-PVP areas, allow characters to interact with the NPCs from farther away. Or, do what Warhammer did: only have CD enabled when members of an opposing alliance are close enough to engage. This meant no CD in PVE areas of the game, eliminating any possibility of same-side griefing.

2: If the concern is opposing alliance members blocking access to important areas/zones/etc using CD … that's the point!

3: Some CD-enabled games use a 'push' mechanic. If you're character is trying to get out of a room, but too many of your same-side characters are in the way, blocking you, just being persistent with moving forward will slowly bump/push them out of the way (this was how City of Heroes dealt with it). Once griefers realize they can't actually grief you, all attempts stop.

I imagine the worry about using CD to grief is perpetuated mostly by people that haven't actually spent any real time in a game that has CD. With just a little bit of thought/pre-planning, it's a complete non-issue.

I have no idea what Brian Wheeler was talking about when he said that you can't have collision detection in a PVP game. That's so far off the mark it left me speechless. I don't know if he's actually never played any PVP games with CD, or if he just didn't handle the interview well, or if he was caught off guard by the question (which can happen to anyone) and uttered out the first thing that came to his mind regardless of how erroneous it was. I just don't know.

But let me be clear: despite Mr. Wheeler's puzzling claim, the benefits of CD in open world PVP cannot be overstated. They raise the experience of large battles to heights that non-CD battles can't even pretend to aspire to.

I know you guys have made other big changes to the game (eg. adding a first person perspective). If you really care about the PVP experience in this game, please, please consider collision detection. Without it, PVP will be a weak shadow of what it could've been.

No.

No petitions allowed. My will be done.

no

They have already come out to say they won't do collision detection because it doesn't work the way they have PvP setup. They want 200 people on the screen running the game smoothly. Having the servers to and calculate that much collision would be a nightmare and more than likely cause serious issues of lag.

So, no this will not be added into the game.

PVE collision is mist.

I also Incline to YES in PVP

Except that EVE incorporates collision detection with thousands on the screen at the same time (they also use a single shard architecture like ESO is planning on doing, by the by).

Not really.

And...? Devs specifically said it doesn't work for their game. Thats the final word.

I am ok with the things the way they are, no need for extra stress on the server.. plus the collision in Skyrim annoys me, when my current companion blocks a door way, or a walking npc just pushes me out of the way, I'll pass on that in an mmo thank you..

If you really played EvE you would know the big battles there slow down whole server and everyone suffers for it, not mentioning its not exactly precise collision detection which you could employ in ESO

They said the same thing about first person perspective. But after further consideration, opted to put it in. Just because they said something at some point in the past doesn't mean it's impossible to consider again.

You don't need super precise collision detection. I don't know that any of the games I've played had it super precise. As long as it's something.

Also, yes, it slowed down the machine/set of machines that were managing that one particular system, but not the whole game. Single shard doesn't mean one big-iron machine running everything. They've still got a whole farm of machines running all the different systems.

They've also managed to mitigate greatly the effects of lag in a system with 2500+ ships fighting by using their pretty clever time dilation logic. This is probably outside the scope of the discussion of this thread, but if someone's interested, I can go into more detail on that.

Still, ESO's goal is 200. Surely that's manageable if EVE can up that by a factor of 10 (or more).