I want to disable some of the crap around the Bison Steve. Is it a good idea or bad idea to set enable parent and disable it at a certain time? I think I read somebody post it's not a good idea to just delete vanilla references and you should just disable them? Is that correct? If not, what's the best way for me to get the stuff I don't want to either move to another location somewhere else or simply go away?

edit: I don't know if it matters, but I just want to disable that old car right in front, the papers and tin on the ground, planks and so forth around the entrance. I also want to disable that broken lightpost in the road, and replace it with a working one.

Thanks!

Don't ever delete or remove vanilla refs!! I can't stress this enough, It can cause many issues with game and, other mods. Even the simple things like street litter can give you incredible headaches if you delete them. That being said if you want to remove something the Dev's placed, simply set them to "initially disabled" and, move them below ground. They will still be there but, they won't be in your mod. One of the reasons you never delete anything is because once deleted the GECK thinks that form ID # is available again and, will assign it to the next object you place, this can cause conflicts with mods and the game itself.

Deleting refs is considered a "Dirty Edit" and, is really a big no, no!!!!!! :nono:

If your intent is to have these items removed on some sort of trigger or, event, it's still best to move unwanted objects below ground and, replace them with your own objects.

If you get in the habit of working this way you'll end up with a more stable "other mod friendly" mod.

cev

Edit: sorry, You did say disable not delete! :banghead: Disable OK! :goodjob: Delete bad! :brokencomputer:

ok, just to clarify. I only want the junk to disable when some other stuff I've got setup to enable at a certain stage enables. So, couldn't I just attach the objects I want to disable to my enable marker, set them do do the opposite of the parent and they should just disable (disappear) when my other stuff enables (appears)? I'm simulating cleaning up a bit in front, and adding a new entrance walkway type area.


Is this a bad idea to do this way? And why and how would I need to move them underground or did I misunderstand?

Oh crap, I just thought of something else too. They have to be set persistent and given a unique REF to do that. What will that affect?

I'm not 100% sure if the way your thinking is a bad idea or not, I always error on the side of caution. I would select everything I wanted to edit "from vanilla", hold the "Z" key and drag them down below ground. Next I would duplicate them and, move my new ones back up. (this way the vanilla ref's haven't really ben touched just moved, going back to set all of the vanilla ones to initially disabled.) then I would go about setting my new objects to persistent ref's, my activate parents and, triggers.

It's best not to use Dev placed objects in your mod, Doors, door barricades, if you can get them out of your way your better off in the long run. If you do a find and replace on a Dev placed door you'll start to get GECK errors when loading the GECK. this is because the Fallout.esm is looking for the original but, your mod is overwriting it.

I hope I was more clear but, if you need more help feel free to ask or, even PM.

cev



They do need to be set to persistent for your trigger to work but, you don't have to give them a unique REF, If you changed there REF that would also be a dirty edit and something you shouldn't do.

Thanks Cev, I believe I got it. Just out of curiosity as I'm really trying to learn all I can, why would just disabling a vanilla object, (say an old car), cause such big potential problems? I mean, it's still actually there, right? You just can't see it?

I'll admit I know enough to be dangerous, lol. And I'll certainly defer to y'all experts instructions and advice, but I'm not grasping why that's a big deal. (but again, I don't know squat from shineola!)

Thanks again!

You could probably get a way with just disabling something like a car, without causing mod conflicts or, game glitches. Although one problem you may run into is that if one of your users had already ben to Prim They may have an issue because, there not loading from a clean save. The problem they may have is that the object doesn't go away because it's referenced in the save.

Hiding and, disabling the original insures that a level 20 or a level 1 player will see everything the way you intended and, should cut down on false bug reports for you to check out. One other potential issue is if another modder had deleted the car and, there mod is loaded after yours, the car would be gone in your mod too. This may cause issues with your triggers or, if you reference it in a script for some reason.

Like I said before I try to always error on the side of caution to avoid issues with others and, make the most stable mod possible.

cev

:lightbulb: THAT explains it all! I totally understand now, although I don't know why there isin't a way to "refresh" the save every now and then, or by using the console when needed. :shrug:

Wrong topic to post in, but I just gotta ask, is deleting a plant O.K.? Those plants that you cant even pick fruits from?

NO!!!!!! it's Not O.K.!!!!!

Seriously, deleting anything even plant is a bad idea!!!!!!!

Get into the habit of setting objects to "initially disabled" and, moving them below ground. I know it is much easier to just hit "DELETE" but, doing the former doesn't take much time and is, considered good modding practice. Dirty edits can cause many issues for you and, other mods when users are running a lot of mods together.

cev

I don't really see the whole urgency involved in deleting references. Deleting persistent references, or ones that are referenced by script or AI packages is obviously a bad idea. But deleting a random tree won't actually do anything. Even deleting something in a town won't actually harm anything, as long as it's not referenced then it won't cause any issues. If you can, disable it. But if you're say overhauling a whole random wilderness area, check that the things there aren't essential for anything. If they are, you can delete them without much of an issue.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on this one! While working on DCInteriors I ran into many issues because, some other modder deleted refs, things as innocuous as Door barricades or, street litter. Depending on Load order these deleted refs can cause severe issues, on top of that as I've said above, when you delete a ref the GECK thinks that it's reference number is available again and, assigns it to the next form added. This can cause mod conflicts but, my real point with the not deleting refs is I'm trying to instill good modding practices here. Deleting refs is a "DIRTY EDIT" and, mods with them will inevitably conflict with other mods. Just as using simplistic form ID's like "myGun01" is a bad idea, some noob is going to inevitably use that same ID and, you have a conflict.

If you start off working with proper modding etiquette, you'll end up with a more stable, compatible mod. Also, If deleting refs is OK, then why would FO3edit and FNVedit both have the feature to "Un-delete, deleted refs", which brings back all deleted refs and, sets them to "initially disabled"?

The cleaner you build your mod the more it will work and play well, with other mods.

cev

This, Cev's correct :goodjob:

Never delete always disable, but if you start to CTD go back and enable said item.....I hope I didn't confuse anyone besides myself :biggrin:


bigcrazewolf

If you were the only modder out there you probably would be correct but, there are thousands if not millions of us out there. We need to learn to work and play well, with each other! "Dirty Edits" are not the way to start! We need to set a standard which should always be adhered to and, older modders should take the time to educate the noobs to insure this standard is upheld. Yes, there will always be the rogue moron who thinks they know best but, in the end there mod will go nowhere because it's buggy, glitchy and, they will drop off like dead flies because there mod simply svcks!

cev

Oh [censored] that means I'm screwed. I cant remember if I did delete any trees or cliffs while finding a location to place my entrance....crap!

I agree with SomeWelshGuy and disagree with cevsteel. For simple landscape or clutter objects which are not persistent, there is no problem to delete them. It is incorrect to say that these formid's may get reused in a mod. All formid's in a mod have a prefix which ensures the mod formid will always be different from any base game formid. Of course you should only delete the objects you need to delete, rather than randomly deleting tons of objects, and you should never delete persistent objects because they are used by some quest.

If you have deleted or moved some objects in the landscape around the entrance point to your dungeon, it is possible that some other mod may have chosen the exact same or nearby entrance point. This case is unlikely, but then there is a big merge problem anyway. One or two trees will be the least of your concerns.

Exactly my point.
Pretty much everything you do will conflict with another mod. But most of the time this isn't a huge issue. For example if two items in different mods have the same editor ID, then it won't have any effect in game. Only if you load both mods in the GECK will it complain, and even then it just renames the last one with a DUPLICATE tag.

Also AFAIK, the "Undelete deleted refs" function only removes the D tag on persistent vanilla references which are used by the game. Not anything else.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't disable stuff. It's best to always disable if you can. But as long as it's not referenced, then deleting doesn't do any damage. It simply marks the vanilla object with a D flag in your mod. You can't overwrite the indexes as you always have your mods index prefixing the form ID.

Deleting items has always been considered a bad practice - Oblivion, FO3, etc.

I personally won't use any mods that have deleted items in them.

Suppose I am adding a shack to the middle of nowhere in the wasteland, but there is a tree in the way. I delete the tree. You won't play my mod? Can you explain more about why? Why is it better to make this tree initially disabled instead?

Thank you so much for stepping up! I could use a few other, older modders to help me get my point across!!!



"DIRTY EDITS" such as deleted ref's can cause a host of issues when run with other mods, everything from CTD's to simple graphics glitches! It's almost impossible to give you an exact example of what will happen, it depends on your mod and, the mods it's run along side of! Why does this happen? Because one mod is looking for a specific form the other is looking for it too! It's gone, changed or, deleted!

Once you run into one of these "Dirty edit" issues for yourself you'll fully understand! Maybe I'm a bit off on my explanation of the GECK re-using form ID's, It was how it was explained to me by an MW, TES modder and, I got his point on how bad it can be with a little first hand experience while working on DCInteriors.

Take my advice, don't take it! I really don't care that much, If you build a clean mod from the start you'll be better off and, so will your users. If you want to build a "Dirty mod" well, best of luck to you!

I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to you that proper modding etiquette is important for your mod to work well with other mods, This is a community after all, isn't it? Your not the only modder out there! We need to work together! . Feel free to use the delete key to your hearts content but, don't expect to have a stable, compatible mod in the long run. :violin:

I'm done, stepping off of my soap box now, your on your own! Good luck, with your "Dirty mods!"

cev

Don't take this personally, I am trying to learn. I completely agree that an object which is persistent should be treated carefully. I am asking about temporary clutter objects. In fnvedit, there is no real difference between a temporary clutter object marked "initially disabled" or marked "deleted". Both count as dirty edits. Why is one worse than the other?

All vanilla objects need to be handled carefully!

I'm not taking this personal, I'm not mad at you or "SomeWelshGuy". I can't give you an exact example of what will happen when you delete vanilla ref's because it is random! You don't know how they will react to another mod witch has or has not deleted the same ref. This is a tough thing to explain and, diagnose, I'm trying to be helpful here!

back to my main point! "DON'T DELETE VANILLA REF'S"! Any thing the Dev's placed needs to stay in the game! :banghead:

cev

Please help me to understand why marking these items initially disabled and underground is ok, while marking these items deleted is not.

First, and most importantly because the Ref # that the main esm uses thinks they still exist! This is what i was talking about, with the form ID's! Once deleted, no matter if the ref was persistent or not the main .esm is still looking for that specific ID. Toss a dozen or so mods in which delete the same ref and the .esm is confused at best!


cev

I could create a test which shows two different small mods, each deleting the same item, and show that they run together correctly. But, I am sure you would reply that this is not a full proof; with "enough" "large" mods then "something" would go wrong. I think for two mods to delete the same clutter item, they are clearly "set" in the same area, and the problems with using these two mods together will be bigger than just duplicate deletes. Thanks for the explanations, I'll keep it in mind.

Oh same here, in no way am I trying to be hostile. Think of this as a friendly argument between friends


Deleting vanilla base objects is always a bad idea because the real world refs, in that case, are removed. This case does cause the issues you described, the game is trying to load something which doesn't have a base object anymore. However, this doesn't apply to non-essential references of that base object.


All deleting a world reference does in a mod is marks the mod with a "D" for delete tag. It still exists in the ESM, and the game loads it. Just the esp then deletes the reference from the game world.

Like I said, disable if you can. But for example, the Unique Landscapes mod for Oblivion overhauls massive land masses. They didn't disable every single tree, bush and rock. They cleared the area and then started re-building. The idea is that if you delete something that's in use, the game will throw a bit of a fit. However if it's not in use by ANYTHING, then you can apply the D tag to it without any ill effects.