Good mods rectify dire design decisions. I'm all for that. Example: the UI from hell, though I'm not sure that was a design decision for PC so much as they just couldn't be bothered to make a UI that didn't make PC gamers want to puke as soon as they saw how bad it was.

I suppose it could have been a design decision, maybe they hate people who play on PC? Could be true I suppose.

Agreed

Same here! A TES game without mods is like food without either salt or pepper, It's bland.

Texture quality (not art design): Atrocious
Difficulty: To easy thanks to lots of balancing issues
Magic: UP and no fun (having to hit an average critter over 30 times with a spell is not fun!)
UI: urghhhh

There are already mods out there that replace most in-game textures and balancing mods won't take long once the CK is available.

that's not the point
I get what the OP is saying
nothing wrong with making a product with added functionality on the PC since it has more capabilities (console commands/mod support etc.)
but that doesn't mean you can use mods as an excuse for faults in a game that doesn't even support it (I.E every console copy of skyrim)

Unofficial patches, and new content. That's the point of mods. So yes, it's a perfectly reasonable solution.

Those numbers are false btw since Steam sales aren't included in PC sales.

The biggest problem is that "balance issues" tend to be subjective. There's not anyone in the world that will complain about one thing being overpowered that can't find someone else to come right back and gripe about how weak it is.

The only things you can expect a developer to "fix" with patches are stability issues, interface problems, code bugs, quest glitches, and other errors as such. Balancing things are very rare, and usually only changed because something is so egregious and unexpected that it does actually throw the game off balance.

This does not include every person that comes onto the board stating in a thread that they can't possibly play this game because ____ is too ____ and it's breaking their immersion.

I agree. I don't know what the answer is. Ironically the PC itself as a platform is most to blame for this. Ever since it became fashionable for publishers to shove out any old crap knowing they could patch it later it was obvious we were going to be paying full price for beta versions of games thereafter.

The poison seems to have spread to consoles with the advent of hard disks etc. It's a shameful philosophy but if people hadn't kept buying half finished games they would have stopped doing it. You can bleat all you like on internet forums but if you don't hit them where it hurts (their wallets) they couldn't care less.

Please simply take the time to read a thread before posting, especially when it is only 1.5 pages long. It saves us having to repeat: the problem is not that mods are not a viable solution, but rather they are only a viable solution for a fifth of the playerbase, the rest not having access to it. Therefore, no, it is not a reasonable solution when talking about fixing broken content.

ya know i have ob for the pc, i think the only mods i downloaded were darnui and the unoffical patch, and the unofficaial patch removed permabound weapons. I think mods are nice for snazzy looking armor and weapons, hell there are even plenty of great mods on the nexus...but balance is really subjective, so unless you personally mod your game balance you still might find that your game isn't balanced how you want it

I agree, but then again I don't.

Bethesda should have been able to fix the numerous scripting bugs in no time at all, but they probably won't touch those, many of which are actually game breaking (like the Cidnha Mine bugs or the Esbern Door bug), until the other, non-script related bugs are fixed.

However, BALANCE changes, and things like that which are only broken by some people's opinion, DO need to be "fixed" by modders. Because not everyone playing thinks there is anything wrong with the game's overall balance and feel.

It should also be noted that there is no technical reason why console player should not have access to mods. The only reason for this is that the very idea of content for free is anathema to both $ony and M$.

They can increase the load on the system which has a very limited (at least by today's standards) amount of RAM, causing slow-downs and lock-ups.

Then there are those mods that require 3rd party executables to function, like SKSE (Skyrim Script Extender) and the like; these are programmed specifically for the PC and won't work on consoles (though, I suppose they could theoretically be ported if their developer had access to the console SDKs-At least the 360 SDK is free).

Even those mods that just change minor things DO increase the load on the hardware, even if it's only a tiny bit. If they allowed for an unlimited number of mods to be installed, eventually many players would be experiencing issues that they would not have otherwise ran into had they NOT been using mods. And we all know the average console gamer doesn't want to deal with these issues; that is one of the reasons why console gaming has become as big as it has: It's hassle free.

However, your second sentence does bring up an interesting point. Microsoft practically forces DLC to have a price tag associate with it. Valve mentioned this before in an email posted on their forums when talking about DLC for Portal 2. The content was free for PC players, but wasn't for 360 users because MS requires compensation for hosting the files on their service. PS3, however, has no such policy. There are PLENTY of games on PS3 that have totally free content packs, not to mention the PSN service itself is entirely free and actually offers much, much more than Xbox Live does.

Like the games in running so great on consoles even without mods. Do I smell a PS3 smoking? And I'm pretty sure the community would be happy to offer tested mod packs for consoles than won't cause issues. Those that make mods after all would be happy about the greater audience for their work.

THere is a reason modders say that....we were around when the vomit that is Oblivion came out....we whinged and cried how bad it was but Bethesda didnt listen. SO we went and fixed it for ourselves.

For PC players, yes mods will fix it......Im suprised the console users dont make more of a stink about the broken game they have compared to the (eventually) bugfree experience the PC users will get. Bethesda dont care, once the last DLC is out they will neverpatch the game again (look at the vampire bug on PS3 for Oblivion)....console users just have to hope by the point most bugs are fixed.

Modder's know bethesda dont care, so we just fix it ourselves now.....and Bethesda just takes that for granted.

I die a little inside when people associate mods with "WHY CAN'T BETHESDA DO IT?!"

If this is true, then Morrowind must be an extremely flawed game with its huge library of mods...

I am not suggesting that these problems make it impossible for mods to work on consoles, but they are issues that need to be overcome only on the consoles. I think the biggest issues they need to overcome, however, aren't really technical at all; not in a conventional sense, anyway. How would these mods for the consoles be distributed? Who would be making them? Things like that. Console gamers would only be able to get mods in the first place if they had the tools to create them and a method to distribute them, and it would all have to stem from a 1st party fronting the time and money to be able to set that stuff up.

Then you have things like cross-platform compatibility. Would console gamers be able to get and use this mod made specifically for the PC and vice versa? I would like to see the modding community expand into the console market, only because it would mean more opportunity to see some really awesome creative work by an even larger portion of the players. However, I just don't think it's going to happen with Skyrim. Even if it does happen, it probably won't be for quite a while.

Not only that, but in between their big games like TES series, they completely abandon them. They abandoned Oblivion, they abandoned Morrowind, FO3, and after they fix their funkups, they will abandon Skyrim. They will release about 3-4 shoddy games (what was that Star Trek on, and that one with the girl named Ruby? yeah...)to pay the rent in between Skyrim and their next big project.

You have to understand the mentality of the PC gaming community. We WANT TO HELP, every time I see someone complaining about broken quests and other irritating bugs I feel their pain a little and want to help. I like to assume that they are on a PC because that is the only way I can provide that help, otherwise I have to accept the fact that the individual has to wait for a patch which might break 10x more things than it fixes which depresses me.

I myself have vastly relied on the community for help and not Bethesda/obsidian when it came to games like Morrowind/Oblivion/Fallout 3/Fallout NV and that same community is now here for Skyrim. It is a habit that is decades in the making (almost two decades for some here) I really don’t think PC users will break it anytime soon.

Well, now I see where you are going with this. M$ and $ony would have to offer the necessary tools to move content onto consoles for test purposes to those that want to make mods for them. Which is something they would rather avoid since it would basically be giving away the keys to their closet systems to others while offering no monetary gain.

Blizzard was still issuing patches for Diablo II years after its release, and they continued tweaking balance in the game long after all the bugs had been squashed. Blizzard also continued issuing tweaks to Warcraft III long after the expansion.

You can argue that this was because both games had a multiplayer component via BattleNet. But BattleNet is a free service, so that was also Blizzard taking good care of its community, in spite of the fact that neither of these games, nor Starcraft, involved any kind of subscription fees.

That said, I'm actually not upset with Bethesda, since I pretty much bought exactly what I expected, bugs and all. For me, the CK is THE major feature of TES, not the vanilla game. I'm buying an adventure creation kit that happens to have a bunch of pre-built content, not just a game with an optional toolset for tweaking things.

This.

PC has always been the best way to play an ES game. It is known.

Then again many players, such as myself, don't think the game (vanilla) is broken in the first place.

Most of the complaints here are minority issues and as such I don't think it's Bethesda's responsibility to cater for such desires at all.Unless it's an actual technical fault we are generally talking subjective complaint and wish lists which is the perfect realm for modders who have the time, motivation and inclination to cater to the minority imho.

Vanilla isn't perfect, no game is, but the game is hardly unplayable without mods like some people here make out.

Well, I have the consoles as well as the PC gaming platforms. This isn't meant to start a "platform war", but one can't whine and/or complain about the limited ability to 'mod' your xbox or PS console games. The PC has every advantage aside from cost efficiency and reliable game compatibility. While you pay for it, PC offers community fixes that, frankly, will not come from Bethesda. Bethesda is a great gaming studio and I love them to death for the games they put out. But they are a company nonetheless and they aren't going to invest a team of programmers and quality assurance testers indefinitely.

I agree they should get the basic game mechanics patched and balanced for ALL platforms. But if you desire a "wishlist" of fixes and balances then you should have bought the PC version. No hattin', no disrespecting, no "I'm better because I have a PC" bs... Just plain out simple economic facts: Skyrim will get patched "good enough" with some/many things that should get fixed but never will (atleast not officially). This isn't new, this isn't unique to Bethesda, and I can name another studio right off the top of my head that is a far worse offender of milking games for money at the cost of quality (**cough** EA **cough**).

Maybe in the future (the next gen consoles) will allow more "PC like" mod-a-bility. I'm all for it.

To the OP: apparently you've never used a mod before.