Okay, I've spent a few posts here defending TES:O and on the overall, I'm really quite happy with it, but I figure it's better to voice my own issues in the hope that they might resonate with others or maybe reach the devs (ha! what a vain hope that) than just sit there and stew. So I figured I'd point out the one thing I find really disappointing in the screenshots I've seen of the characters in TES:O, at least on the UESP site.

Boob windows on all the female armor.

Now, granted, it could be worse! We could be in chainmail bikini land full-on, and that would be just awful. But frankly, while TES has always had issues with female armor, the "better" sets in general were always fully covering, and there was rarely a boob window near as blatant as it is in the TES:O screenshots I've seen.

In the interests of disclosure, I'm a guy, but I still don't want that kind of stupid sixualization in a game I'm otherwise really looking forward to. I want my plate armor to feel like it's actually going to protect me - not that it's giving anybody with a sword and a bone to pick a perfect view of my unprotected sternum ripe for the impaling.

I'd really like to see the female armor models changed to be closer to/almost identical to the male counterparts, rather than magically losing material when handed from a dude to a chick. Even WoW has been better than not about this lately.

It's a cosmetic difference and about as important as whether an apple is green or red.

And that's to say, it's not important, because it's completely cosmetic.

To me anyway, because such petty things don't bother me as a gamer or a designer.

I don't mind the "boob-windows" (lol) and I'm not a guy. I think the female armor is aesthetically pleasing, as the male-version are way too bulky for me.

I would love to see the in-inventory preview of the armor, as a female character, be of the female-character version of the armor. I was in for a nasty surprise when I donned Saviors Hide for the first (and only) time to find my character in a bizarre mini-skirt thing. The male version, and version in the inventory looked GREAT.

(female-armor versions of mannequins would be fantastic as well, I've seen and tried many of the mods and commands, the commands work great but have their drawbacks, although it is quite funny to have a helmet-less mannequin with a male head, on a female frame with female armor)

I would also prefer modest armor for females. It would be best to keep the game PG in that aspect. Revealing clothing attracts an immature crowd, which I for one, want minimized. There will always be perverts, but it's hard to notice them until they're streaking through the middle of Cheydinhal, buck naked.

There are places where graphics and cosmetics really aren't that important, in a general sense - for instance, the graphical quality of a game is less important than the mechanical quality of a game, by leaps and bounds - the former cannot save the latter, but the latter can save the former. I agree with that.

The problem is that this particular cosmetic issue is one of objectification. If you'll forgive me my soapbox, objectifying things like this are alienating to certain demographics, and also tend to be pretty offensive to (at least some within) those groups. Even ignoring the social issues, I can't really see any disadvantage to not giving female characters a decent, non-sixualized set of armor, and the benefits of inclusiveness are a wider customer base, because you aren't pushing away groups of people because they happen to dislike having their characters' goods hanging out of their chestplate.

Would your reaction be the same if male armor had crotch-windows that stopped before things got improper?

Yep, because it's cosmetic.


She is a female player (as said in her post) who does not care.

Not to mention, if we're going to be using the "objectifying" angle, let's bring up just how many shirtless male heroes we have in gaming, shall we?

Gamers should really start maturing. Does it matter if no cleavage is there? Nope. But it should equally not matter if it is there.

If non-sixualized armor includes male armor without huge shoulder pads, I'm all for it. "Objectification" goes both ways.

That said, women do wear these kinds of clothes in real life. It's not something out of a fantasy-writer's wet dream. I would like to see a mix of reasonable, protective armor and even things like Forsworn Armor from Skyrim.

I've been very careful not to specifically mention women as a whole, nor to act like I'm speaking for men OR women or any other group, because none of those entities are monolithic. That there is one female player who does not care does not mean there aren't others that DO care. Similarly, you are a man who does not care. I am a man who does. See how being able to point to a single example of either doesn't invalidate either of our arguments?

And please, don't go down the "males are equally sixualized" route. I can say, quite confidently at that, that if it came down to providing examples you'd not be able to find near enough equivalent examples to match me. Big muscled heroes aren't an idealization for the benefit of the female audience - they're a male power fantasy. Even if they were, you'd have to show me a lot of pictures of big muscley guys in banana hammocks, all oiled up and posed in ridiculously gratuitous ways for it to be equivalent.

Guys get plate armor that covers all their vital organs. Chicks get a window right to the heart. That's a problem, from where I'm standing. If that makes me "immature" somehow, then so be it.

@Faulgor: The difference is that while women IRL might wear clothing that shows a bit of cleavage, I doubt you'd find many active-service combat personnel who happen to be women who's body armor leaves a convenient hole right over the sternum. We aren't talking about casual wear here, we're talking about armor that you're trusting to keep your insides in.

I'm a guy, but I know, for example my sister, would probably be pretty uncomfortable dressing her character in boob window outfits.

It's sixist and unnecessary.

Men are sixualized differently, mainly because men and women search for different things in a possible mate. While cross-cultural studies have shown that physical appearance is the #1 critera for men, this is not the case for women, where appearance only comes in second after "status". Thus, this is not really a fair comparison. However, male physical appearance is enhanced by, for example, shoulder pads, to emphasize the difference to females. It's not simply about naked chests.

Well, that's a different topic in my book. In TES, not all equipment is meant for combat, and some classes have traditionally less protection in fantasy RPGs than would be viable. Mages usually don't run around in full body armor, even if it would provide the best protection. This goes for males and females alike.

I'd like to see those studies, if you'd like to claim them as evidence. Furthermore, again, the shoulder pad thing is about male power, not about female attraction, which is the fundamental divide here. Furthermore, sixualization isn't bout mating criteria - it's hard to show "status" or whatever through every piece of armor, or every drawing, or etc. but it IS possible to show a physique. And overwhelmingly, men are not shown in the same way as women, because women in media are there overwhelmingly to appeal to the men watching, and the men are too.

If a man in a banana hammock and bodyglitter thrusting his crotch in the camera is a thing you would be made uncomfortable by, then you should be able to see why we should consider the gender-inverse as equally undesirable. It's a problem that we don't.


The thing is, I'm talking about the boob window in the posted pictures. There are no mages in the posted pictures, at least none that are women. I have no idea what the female cloth/leather armours look like, because I haven't been presented with them. What I have been presented with is metal armours, suggesting a need for significant protection.

And there's a boob window there. That's why I keep saying it's a problem.

Honestly I don't really think theres much to worry about. I would expect about the same amount of "coverage" as past ES games. Think we've only seen that one female in armor so far and didn't see an issue, looked pretty modest compared to past MMO's.

Want to see over the top go check out TERA.

Also lets just drop the IRL comparisons while we're at it. It simply doesn't apply, this is a video game with a fantasy setting, of course its not going to follow the same rules. its just so silly to hear "well you don't see that in real life" Well last I checked we don't use magic and kill dragons and monsters in real life either, it doesn't apply one way it doesn't apply the other way either.

Male power is female attraction, though. It's also possible to show status not only through clothing (including armor), but poses and animations.
I'm not sure how to understand "and the men are too". Do you mean to say men are shown in a particular way to appeal to men? While that might be true, the context is a bit larger than simply intrasixual competition - which exists among women as well. Men in the media are also portrayed in a specific way to appeal to women, who are the majority of consumers to begin with.

What I want to say is, if we want to avoid undesirable sixualization, we have to recognize when this happens to men as well. However, this seems to be difficult, because it isn't as obvious as a naked chest.
That said, I would even argue that the total elimination of these objectifications is impossible, and maybe not even desireable, as they are facilitated by the same gender that is objectified. Women gladly dress (or rather undress ...) in a specific way that emphasizes their six, and men willingly compete for status to appeal to women. As much as it annoys me from time to time, nature is sixist.

If you want specific studies, you'd have to give me some time because I need to go through my papers. However, I'm not sure the mods are happy with us discussing this here.

Okay, fair enough. I spend a lot of time on NationStates - it's become a reflex to [citation needed] any mention of studies, but either way both of our discussions have become peripheral to the actual subject of the thread, and I'd really rather not lose the thread because I stopped talking about the game.

I'd address specific parts of your post in a way to re-connect us to the thread topic, but honestly it's the middle of the night, so I'll probably edit that into this post on the morrow, or just make another post if things have moved on.

@Pangscar:

That it's "better" than a bad thing doesn't make it ok. In this case - that TERA is the utter worst example of this doesn't invalidate the issues I'm raising. You don't win the race by just not being the worst one in it.

And frankly, a blade or a dragon's tooth or a fireball is still going to harm exposed skin more than something behind a nice metal shell - no matter how fantastic the situation, if there's still the potential for standard physical mortal harm, boob windows aren't going to make any sense. But if we're going to just say that this isn't real so it doesn't really matter if armour doesn't fully cover, then that's fine, so long as armour doesn't fully cover men and women to an equal extent and in equal ways. If men are fully clothed and women have boob windows, that's out, but give men equivalent windows on their armour and it becomes okay. Except that I doubt many people would be okay with that. I'd personally find it really skeevy.

Not all women don't care, though... it's certainly been bugging me a lot. I'm glad enough they're making it something I can stand, at least, but I'd much rather they made sure the armour actually looked like proper armour, since, really, there's no reason for armour to be low-cut except to show off. Morrowind was great about avoiding this, Daggerfall less so, but aside from Battlespire the series has generally avoided armour made (realistically) useless by being too reavealing, and it's one of the reasons I like the series so much (though, of course, not the main one). It's not a deal-breaker, but it does bother me. I'm more concerned with how women characters are portrayed in the dialogue and writing than how they're dressed, really, though the latter can often be a sign of how the former is likely to go.

I've also found that complaining about it doesn't tend to get the problem fixed, though (with the possible exception of WoW, but then again, WoW started out a lot worse than TES:O is). So I'll just live with it.

It's just another symptom of ZOS' unwillingness to break from typical MMO convention. Instead of giving us "realistic"-looking women, equivalent to the men in musculature, we've got these ridiculous supermodel figures. Just look at that promo pic of the woman standing in front of those (I believe) Ayleid ruins; her face is utterly buried in makeup. And the Altmer woman from that incredibly underwhelming pre-rendered trailer - she doesn't look at all like a TES Altmer, but instead like a beautiful human woman who just happens to have pointy ears. This is the kind of stuff I'd expect out of one of those Dragon Age games, not the Elder Scrolls. But of course, should we be surprised? They know this is what their primary audience of teenaged boys wants, and it is what they shall provide.


On the contrary, that would only make it worse. Who gives a crap about social awareness in a primarily escapist video game played mostly by men\? You might as well complain about black people being marginalized by Redguards having the lowest base intelligence. Save that feminist criticism stuff for media that women actually engage in, like TV shows and the movies. All I care about in my fantasy video games is believability in adherence to the game-world and its lore, or else my immersion is destroyed.

Cosmetic =/= Irrelevant



The cosmetic aspects of a game are all about conveying experiences. As you stand on top of a snowy mountain in Skyrim staring at the aurora above, do you think you would feel the same bliss if the graphics literally looked like a 2-year-old's scribbles on the back of a newspaper?


Likewise, there's only one thing chainmail bikinis are made for. And it's not protection.

A ) Dragon Age is one of the better games these days for how it treats women, though of course it's far from perfect.

B ) Women engage plenty in video games. We just have to deal with certain people trying to drive us away, fortuntely they're having much less success with that these days.

also there is only one thing Huge Shoulderpads are made for.
It goes in both sides even if people dont want to believe it. If the Armor in TES was realistic it would be boring. It would be like you only had the 3 lowest armors from Oblivion. We all crave the bling. And in the case of the Girls the bling is sixy. I dont say they should be oversixualized like in TERA.

The thing should not be "realistic" rather it should be "authentic" see its not realistic to see those Chest buldges on the Female Armors. But its still somewhat beleiveable (also not totaly unheard of just look at the Ancient Greek Armors and dont tell me it was all for show) You know Tamriel is kind of the early European Middle ages just without the Church to ban everything they dont like. I dont think its too far off. And if you realy want it to be realistic you have to tone down the rediculous male armors too. And the Horned Helmets. And if you take my Horned Helmets i will smack you about with a large edible fish!


on the subject of male empowerment fantasy: so male empowerment is fine when its in the form of "empowering" a male but wrong when its about objectifying a woman? that makes no sense!

As long as it's not as bad as say, 90% of Oblivion mods out there, I won't be upset. I remember a discussion elsewhere about how there should be a choice made by the players about how revealing their armour should be. Granted I can understand not wanting to make 2 or 3 different sets of armour where you could only make 1, but I think forcing people to wear more revealing sets can drive away people who would otherwise play, and likely so can the other extreme.

as long as they take it easy on the crazy chain Bikini I'm fine if they show some "cleavage", if they make female armor almost the same as male then that's all the better tbh, the only difference should be the "size" of the whole thing.

Insulting all females who play fantasy games. bravo. And, I've seen Redgaurds brought up for being racist a couple of times. (lowest base intelligence, more athletic with adrenaline boost)

Just want to point out, Dragon Age elves are meant to be wierd looking too. Dragon Age: Origins less so, but they're still not completely human-looking. The Dragon Age II elves are utterly alien and would've been a great source of inspiration for the Zenimax guys.

elves ARE aliens in Nirn I hope we get to see what skyrim and morrowind did so well (in terms of making each race unique), I actually like how argonians and kahjit look, they say frog I say more argonian customization, also dunmer looked good in the fly by

Okay, at this point after some cooling down, I've got to admit that I was letting defensiveness get in the way of talking clearly. Ultimately, I agree that men are subject to some objectification too, and that this is also a bad thing! I disagree, however, that this is something that we should accept, as well as to whom men in media are objectified. However, like you pointed out and I agreed with earlier, this discussion is tangential and is getting away from the point of the thread, so instead of continuing to argue it out here, I'd like to invite you to PM me if you want to continue the discussion. I hope you don't see this as dodging or anything - I just agree that the mods probably wouldn't appreciate a discussion not focused on TES:O.


In the case of chest-bulges on female armours - those aren't AS bad as boob windows, but they would still guide blades and other things straight into the stomach or sternum. If you can find me an example of a non-ornamental, period-appropriate set of armour intended for a woman from the Middle Ages (ignoring that Tamriel is far more than that), I might concede the point, but I doubt that any such thing exists.

And there's a difference between adherence to realism where it reduces objectification and adherence to realism where it reduces visual interest. I'm not here to complain about your horned helmets, I'm here to complain about needless objectification of the armours granted to fully one half of characters in this game.

And to respond to your last point: that isn't what I said at all, and I don't think anyone else arguing on my side said it either. The male power fantasy of huge muscles and HRUGH STRONG MAN is also frustrating and tired. Objectifying anyone for any reason is wrong! I don't want ridiculously big shoulder pads any more than I want boob windows. But I see a bigger issue with the latter than the former, because it's a far more negative portrayal (please don't misconstrue this as me saying that the male power fantasy character design isn't negative).