Well, I finally got around to doing the MQ after doing a whole bunch of other stuff on Solstheim.

First, I was floored at how short the MQ quest was. This DLC is the mirror image of Dawnguard:
Dawnguard - meaty MQ, not so interesing radiant quests; Dragonborn - skimpy MQ; lots of other things to do
Dawnguard - few but large new dungeons, most very heavy on art; Dragonborn - more dungeons, but less spectacular (though Apocrypha was quite interesting)

Now the set up for the MQ had an interesting premise, but then it all fell apart when I met HM and he explained how he wanted me to take on Miraak and why. You're pissed off at Miraak because he wants to leave Apocrypha? What, you think I'm going to stick around? And this is your realm. If you're so po'ed at him, deal with him yourself. We're not on Mundus here, you're free to do whatever you want. Why do you need me?

And then, when I travel to Apocrypha to deal with Miraak, I have to go through all these elaborate puzzles and fight various enemies just to get to Miraak. Why can't HM just send me to where I need to go? I know, I know, it wouldn't be much of a dungeon if we ended up in the boss room without first fighting some enemies and solving some puzzles along the way. But the logic here mystifies me.

If the story was going to involve Apocrypha and HM, fine, but give me some better explanation of why I have to do the job HM wants done. Cause getting a new champion just because the old one doesn't want to stick around any longer doesn't make sense. Guess what? The new champion is not going to stick around either!

My theory on why HM needed us is that HM wasn't as powerful as we thought, and can't control Miraak as well as we believed. He needed us to weaken him, so he could commit the final blow. Since our souls are so super charged with dragon juice, the most he can do is try to manipulate us. Miraak probably had so much trouble escaping Apocrypha because he died.

A mirror of something is identical to it. You might be thinking of something more along the lines of "polar opposites", which means wholly unalike.
There is a real lack of depth present in the MQ and its characters, at least regarding the baddies specifically.

However, Miraak wants to take you out so he can escape Herma's realm with the power of your soul and terrorize Solstheim. It's less about Herma controlling you and more about you defeating Miraak with Herma's knowledge, which in turn subjugates you to him. Had Herma slain Miraak outright, he would be without a new champion. The way in which he manipulates the situation removes Miraak, gains him the knowledge of the Skaal (because making Horker stew is secret stuff), and yields himself a new Dragonborn.

No, I meant mirror, where left becomes right and right becomes left. DG - longish MQ; DB - short MQ; DG - few but big dungeons; DB - lots but less interesting dungeons; DG - few radiant quests, one side quest; DB - lots of side quests.

Well that's an interesting way of looking at it. When most people say something "mirrors" something else, they are metaphorically implying that they are identical / very similar. But I definitely see what you're getting at.

If Miraak needs to take us out to escape Apocrypha, why does he let us escape the first time we meet him?
First time I saw him I tought that he needed his cult restablished and his temple rebuilt to be able to return.
I thought "[censored], it's a matter of time then he WILL be back and Mundus will end as his charmed followers are saying"....he seemed so BADASS just because he knocked me down and totally didn't care about me "Send him back, he can wait my return with the rest of Tamriel".....THAT was extremely fascinating.
My impression was that he was so powerful that even H.Mora couldn't stop him from returning.

Then you don't meet him anymore till the very end...no dialogue, no explanations, in short no depth....

As people have allredy said i belive old Herma mora manipulated the situation to get the most gain out of it. He gained both a new champion and the secrets of the skaal.

Think about it, if you lost HM would just have to subjugate Miraak himself (He could most likely easily do it whenever he wished too) and have a more powerfull champion that have your dragonsouls added to his own, if you win he gets a new more powerfull (and depending on your char more loyal) champion, not to mention that he (by manipulating you and the skaal) gained the secrets of the skaal that he apparently have wanted for a long long time.

As for why Miraak didnt pwn us the first time we meet i belive that was becuse he underestimated the hero and that the whole "use his souls to return" was something he came up with later that wasent part of the orginal plan.


(And the whole running around HM's realm part is most likely to test the hero, or maybe just play with him, who knows deadra princes arent realy normal. It might even have been the result of Miraak's influense on HM's realm and HM just didnt bother to involve himself to make it easier for you).

Too many holes in the MQ and far too short.

I think it's not a question of herma moras power as he was the one to actually destroy miraak, I think he wanted to see which dragonborn was stronger to be his champion....had miraak won then I think HM would've violated us the same way

I agree with the MQ being too short but the rest of the island makes up for it

Well, he only killed him after we weakened him. I think he's full of it, personally, and we're stronger than we think. Not kill a daedra in his own realm strong, or at all, since that's impossible, but enough for him not to be able to destroy me. We already know he can't influence us directly through forced control.

I only really feel the short coming up with the skaal, and the shaman. The rest of the story felt somewhat natural. I can see why you would want a bit more meat for Miraak's personality, but they let the fight do the talking.

HM had awakened the thu'um in Miraak, and Miraak followed him like a servant into apocrypha. naturally living in apoycrpha for millenia would drive anyone mad, and so Miraak decided to work his way out and escape. Now if he escaped, he would spread the influence of HM around the world. HM's downside being the lack of full control on miraak that he had in his realm.

However once we stepped into the picture, we were brought in as another toy to play with. We loose and Miraak uses the power he uses the power obtained from HM to rule the world. we beat Miraak and we become a subject who can come and go as we wish, yet stay loyal to HM. And as a loyal follower of HM you spread his power, obtain knowledge for him, do whatever he wished, and have little objection to coming back to apocrpha as it would be part of a task, rather than a lifetime punishment.

and in the case you aren't a loyal HM follower, he still has those oppurtunites where he can manipulate you into retrieving something for him, when you need some forbidden knowledge.

It's win across the board for HM. But obtaining the loyalty of the new Dragonborn was clearly the most rewarding path.

As far as Mora's actions go, Blue and Orange Morality my friends. We may try to work out the why, but Daedric Princes are so beyond our understanding that we can never truly know their motivations. It may be that our minds are simply incapable of comprehending it, like trying to imagine a four dimensional sphere or 1+1 not equaling 2. I would imagine this applies even more so to Hermaeus Mora even more so, given his sphere of influence.

People have been saying this before, is there any ingame content i have missed backing this or is it just a assumption?

It wouldn't surprise me as many of the daedra enjoy messing with the aedra and their gifts to mortals. So Mora being responsible for...wait a second, Miraak is the first Dragonborn. So Mora wouldn't e able to have known the secrets of Akatosh's blessing until at least after Miraak was given a dragon's soul. Unless he can steal secrets from the minds of Divines.

It's probably jut an assumption made in ignorance of the fact tht Mora saved Miraak from the Guardian, Vahlok, way back before the Dragon War. That's why Miraak serves Mora.

assumption but it seems to make sense. He was a dragonpriest and served the dragons. If someone told him he could absorb dragon's souls by killing them, and learning word's of power, he could easily rule the world.

The dragons held the leash due to their power over humans, if you learned you could overpower your current rulers who devour your people, and treat you like an underling.. wouldn't you take that offer?

I mean how else would he know of this ability, a dragon somehow dies before him, and he absorbs a soul, and just realizes he is dragonborn and flees to HM's realm?

the walls describe him as a traitor... Someone who purposely killed dragons betraying the purpose of the priests. He would have access to word's, like all priests do, but knowing he could quickly master thu'um by devouring souls.. that was a huuuuge benefit to him.

But Vahlok was after Miraak for the soul reason of betraying the priests and dragons. and HM was protecting him for a reason. I really don't find "ignorance" to be a word that can be justified in this matter. We are trying to piece something together with no real order. So it's a matter of making guesses that could lead to causes for the bits and pieces, creating a chronological order from fragment's of knowledge, and speculation.

I'm mystified as well. The MQ leaves us with too many questions. And not the kind of questions you have fun trying to figure out, the kind that you're irritated weren't answered within the game already.

Haermeus Mora probably tricked him in rebelling against the Dragons and the Cult, the blessing of being a Dragonborn is a gift from Akatosh, not Haermeus Mora.
And we know from Miraak's words that he was still around at the time of the Dragon War and the first defeat of Alduin, since he tells us that Hakon&friends ask for his help in defeating the Destroyer of Worlds.
Why some nord heroes would ask a Dragon priest for help is quite strange...anyway we know that he was still around at that time.
BUT on the other hand, we know that Valhok defeated and jailed him on Solstheim, probably with the aid of the Dragons that then destroyed his temple and trusted Valhok to guard him....now, since the Dragon Cult was destroyed with Alduin's defeat, the story here doesn't fit very well...

and how/when did he escaped jailing?
Was Valhok story true?Or did Miraak escaped the Dragons wrath by going to Apocrypha and the false rumour of his capture was spread to avoid admitting Dragon's failure?When all this happened since Hakon asked him for help?
Why Beth didn't make a 3-4 hour longer main quest to fill all these holes?

Yeah the MQ was really short. But what were the secrets of the Skaal? No offense to the Skaal but Neloth seems to be correct, they don't really seem to be the kind of people who have dark secrets besides having 14 ways to skin a horker.

what the hell is ur sig

LMAO, no offense colonel but I thought the same thing and I happen to like both hiphop and nords separately but neither mix well imo....a nord rap just makes me go

Lol, you know its awesome. I get people complementing me on it all the time.

ha it's cool do you brother...this comes to mind when I read it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50u0zUeCmU
It's a bit lame yet somehow awesome at the same time, there's parts where he gets it and I think "you go dova boy"

I would destroy all rap nords in a freestyle battle up on the throat of the world with Dj Paarty-nax on the 1s and 2s

I loved the MQ, dont care about the length.

Actually a mirror transposes something from left to right so they are not identical. Thanks for the misguided pedantry though.