Stardark says... " Computer games are just big databases, character progression in it's simplest form involves turning some 1's into 2's, and then into 3's. That is done over time by partaking in some activity (It doesn't matter if those numbers represent physical stats, gear, mental attributes or whatever). If that activity is boring it becomes 'the grind' if not then it becomes 'the game'. But essentially you progress by doing something, if you don't have to do things over and over then people complain that you progress too quickly.

RPG's have to be about doing activities to improve your character, just like in real life if you want to be good at say maths you spend a long time learning."

Role playing games are games that the player plays. If your mind cannot grasp the concept of game evolution then you're the one with the problem, not the rest of us. This is 2013, and we're not playing RPGs by rolling dice and taking notes. TESO will not be played on a commodor 64. Modern games are not limited to "databases". We don't see what goes on under the hood, and with the movement based combat system, all your numbers seem counter intuitive. Embrace change, or go back to pushing pencils. The majority of the TESO fans don't want WOW with Elderscrolls visuals.

OOps, didn't see the other thread. Ignore this one.

You haven't posted this in the other thread so I kind of have to reply here, but I have no idea how you read what you read into my post. I also don't care how much the database is hidden under the hood of the pretty visuals, the game cannot function without it. In pen and paper there was a little sheet that you wrote down what happens on, if you get a bit more strength when you reach level 4 etc. In a computer game that database adds a 1 in the 'gambling addict' column every time you roll a dice. It doesn't matter if you think you are just playing a mini game, what you are doing is writing to a database, which is incrementing a stat, which is grinding.

That will never change no matter how much of a pretty face you put on it. I agree that you do need a pretty face, I don't want to see a lit of numbers going up when I press a button, I want to see those dice and see if I win, but it doesn't disguise the fact that it will always be the same raw mechanic underneath it all. So anyone asking to be rid of stats and grinding is not asking for something that can possibly be delivered.

you need at least any kind of progress in a game to call it RPG

now if I'd like to play a game that has no progress at all, so I can just log in and play with the same abilities that anyone else has I'd go for some source mod (or what ever it is these days)

but we are all here because we like to have progress, and we like to have levels.
and we like to have that wonderful feeling when we finally get that one last item of Tier 3.
we go and post it to all your friends and get their "wows" and their "congrats" in return, so we are all happy just before entering the next dungeon/battle ground just to have a go on Tier 4 gear.

you know what? of all the feelings one can have while playing a game, it is this feeling that I miss most in GW2.


to me it is that feeling that makes the difference between just a game and a roll play game


of course it doesn't have to be gear all the time, one could feel just as happy if you get faction rank-point in return, so you can buy the stats directly (like DAoC did it)
or you could have a house and stuff it with all sorts of trophies and get some passive stats through that

but no matter what you'll get in reward it would not change anything about players with less time would have less rewards


as for "only cosmetic rewards", go and get yourself a Barbie-doll and a new dress for it every month, should be the same price as an MMORPG subscription...