I hate level scaling. Why wont they just get rid of it. : V - Skyrim

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:05 pm

Everyone saying everything scales are liars. I am level 41 in a Dwemer ruin finding scaled/dwarven armor and one hitting Falmer.

You're WRONG. Barely anything SCALES. STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:55 am

Yes yes yes to the guy saying how skyrims scaling is different from oblivion. Every time I read one of these threads half the complaints don't even apply to skyrim. People are still butthurt over oblivion and haven't even have skyrim a chance.

No. Im mad about having to wait untlil a certain level to get certain loot i.e. archmages robe.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:19 am

No. Im mad about having to wait untlil a certain level to get certain loot i.e. archmages robe.

Someone who's against level scaling as mad about having to wait until a certain level to do something? Huh?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:26 am

Someone who's against level scaling as mad about having to wait until a certain level to do something? Huh?

No. Im not.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:11 pm

Durr hey guys I hate level scaling but I'm getting plate armor loot at high levels durr

NOT level scaling.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:08 am

Look, let's go back to what a good game offers a player:

a) a challenge. if its too easy, you don't get the same satisfaction as hours go by as when you feel you had to work, and accomplished something after a few tries.
B) a reward. the loot at the end, or a quest-completed, etc.

But here is what is important : rewards should scale with the challenge, but challenges and thus rewards SHOULD NOT SCALE TO THE PLAYER, in a great game.

And to me the simplest way to imagine it is, indeed, that there /should be/ somewhere in the world of an open world game, a place that is waiting for you with a GIGANTIC reward. That reward is behind a GIGANTIC challenge. But NOTHING should stop you from taking on that challenge ANY TIME. (so that challenge must NOT scale). This allows somebody with enough dedication (or luck, or cheat if they choose to ruin their own single player gaming experience) to OBTAIN said item.

At some point I also do believe an open world game SHOULD indeed allow you to say "dear player, you have just become so awesomely powerful (cuz you lucked out and got Uber Weapon of Uberness early on, or earned it after 100 hours of play) that now indeed everything is as it would be if you were just at the top of the food chain.

Look, if you take a path that leads you to "you are now god, enjoy killing everyone"... guess what... the game didnt just fail you... YOU JUST REACHED THE END OF IT.

And the great thing? This isn't real life... it's a game, so you can always RE-START IT. Now take another path, another game play style.

So. What do I conclude?

Hide loot proportional to the challenge, to avoid complete luck deciding that someone suddenly 'becomes god' in a game (the same reason to make sure that the chances of Uber loot is very very small, although I think it should be non-zero). Don't sweat the exploiters and cheaters, that's their decision and while I agree it is a terrible choice to make... it is theirs (I kinda ruined oblivion when I found/stole quick tons of reloads glass armor early on, but then again I just found it by accident and I felt like I had earned it...).

Have areas of the world determined by the designers and fix them. TBH, in practice they might want to scale them within a small range (to allow tolerance for "level 10-15" to reflect various player styles).

Ensure that you do not suddenly eliminate "easy challenges", the player always should have a sense that somewhere, against some enemy, he has earned the right to just crush them (think: there should always be a stupid rat you can just squash, as a reminder of where you are)

Finally, a clever trick games can play is things like:

"Congrats, you just found Uber Sword of Uberness, but guess what, you need Health > 200 AND Stamina > 210 AND Level >10". That doesnt take away the reward, and on the contrary gives the player a reason to say "jee I better level up so I can use this awesome thing I found so early on!"

All in all, Skyrim so far I think is doing a pretty decent job. I am suffering from a moment of '[censored] everything is getting harder' now, but in fairness levels 1 to 15 felt well balanced...

I love you.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:59 pm

Why do people who apparently want to play linear games like JRPGs and Bioware games, play gamesas games and then complain that they're gamesas games?

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:42 pm

This is what I like in an RPG.

So, you're just a low level coming out of the tutorial. You find a cave and rush in there quickly, you get your ass kicked and you are forced to reload a save. After you reload a save, you do some low level quests to build up your characters level and become stronger. After you're level 5 or 6, you go back to those bandits that killed you and destroy them all with your mighty steel waraxe. This gives the player a sense of accomplishment.

Stronger - In Oblivion and Skyrim, you don't get stronger. You got weaker. I had no problem taking out bandits @ level 4 and 5, but when I was level 25+ they could kill me in 4 or 5 hits which is rather troublesome if I don't have any healing potions or enough time to use a healing spell.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:39 am

Level scaling is even worse with a level cap of 81.

Because...?

Level scaling in Oblivion was utter rot, especially as you got into the higher levels past 20.

Level scaling thus far in Skyrim has made sense and has been awesome.

But don't let that stop you from talking out of your ass, please, do go on with your petulant whining and explain your statement so that I may be amused.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:30 pm

I have to agree with others that dislike the level-scaling. In an RPG I want to level and know that I'm getting more powerful and ultimately I want to feel like a god. In Oblivion/Skyrim you are penalized for leveling up and putting your talents into those that won't benefit your combat. I like RPG's where you know that if you try and fight that dragon that has been terrorizing the nation when you start the game you will be torn to shreds - and after leveling up you can bat wolves and bandits away like flies. I like having areas and enemies that I know that I cannot touch and must use my skills and luck to avoid for now and then come back with better stats/spells/equipment and seek my revenge on them.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:18 pm

This is what I like in an RPG.

So, you're just a low level coming out of the tutorial. You find a cave and rush in there quickly, you get your ass kicked and you are forced to reload a save. After you reload a save, you do some low level quests to build up your characters level and become stronger. After you're level 5 or 6, you go back to those bandits that killed you and destroy them all with your mighty steel waraxe. This gives the player a sense of accomplishment.

Stronger - In Oblivion and Skyrim, you don't get stronger. You got weaker. I had no problem taking out bandits @ level 4 and 5, but when I was level 25+ they could kill me in 4 or 5 hits which is rather troublesome if I don't have any healing potions or enough time to use a healing spell.

You're not doing very good if that's the case.

The scaling is much more sensible in a lot of areas, where some areas will still own you because you're not strong enough to size up to the opposition, while in other areas, you're just tossing around enemies like bad jokes at a comedy convention.

If anything, the level scaling I've seen thus far has been much more akin to Morrowind with a dash of Oblivion. You start seeing a few stronger types here and there, but you're still seeing plenty of the types you matched with 10 levels ago, and they drop fast as you'd expect compared to your stronger, better self than they found 10 levels ago.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:13 am

I don't get what the complaining is about?
Maybe you guys should get wives so you have something better to do.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:13 pm

I don't get what the complaining is about?
Maybe you guys should get wives so you have something better to do.

C'mon, be sensible.

Most wives would be unbalanced on the level scaling for them, the wife would always get stronger while they get weaker as time goes on.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:49 pm

Also, you shouldn't start the game slaughtering bandits then spend the next 5 level-ups making potions to then return to the field and find that the same bandits that were so easy before are now tossing you around like a rag doll.

I appreciate that Skrim has done a better job at this than Oblivion (thank god!) but I don't think it is fixed yet.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:04 pm

It was one of the most hated features in Oblivion and its back In Skyrim. Why? And dont give me that its necessary for open world games because its not. New Vegas and Morrowind did just fine with ouut it. And I hate the fact that I have to wait for my level to be high enough just to get good gear. This should not be. If I complete a quest, I should get the strongest gear in the first place. And if its to easy to get then its the developers fault and they should fix it.

Morrowind was NOT fine without it. In the endgame, you would be so powerful that nothing was even remotely a challenge.

(and New Veges DID have some level scaling.)

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:59 pm

This is what I like in an RPG.

So, you're just a low level coming out of the tutorial. You find a cave and rush in there quickly, you get your ass kicked and you are forced to reload a save. After you reload a save, you do some low level quests to build up your characters level and become stronger. After you're level 5 or 6, you go back to those bandits that killed you and destroy them all with your mighty steel waraxe. This gives the player a sense of accomplishment.

Stronger - In Oblivion and Skyrim, you don't get stronger. You got weaker. I had no problem taking out bandits @ level 4 and 5, but when I was level 25+ they could kill me in 4 or 5 hits which is rather troublesome if I don't have any healing potions or enough time to use a healing spell.

You're actually not getting weaker at all. It's just that in some cases you're just not getting a lot stronger (depending on your perspective) or the world is progressing faster than you do, or both combined. But you don't get weaker. And I see people use that phrase a lot here, and I think that's where part of the "misunderstanding" comes in from the other side. I do understand the sentiment behind the phrase, but it just comes off sounding wrong.
And to reiterate, you are progressing and generally getting stronger at varying paces, and the world may be doing that faster or at the same pace as you, but you are not getting weaker.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:55 am

I really do agree. I hate hate HATE level scaling - all it does is make a game less enjoyable and I don't know why so many people think it is "necessary". Morrowind didn't have level scaling; it wasn't "linear" at all like that one person said and it is still to this day considered by many as one of the best games of all time.

And what else didn't have level scaling? Pretty much every other memorable game, such as Baldur's Gate. There were certain mods that removed level scaling from Oblivion too and I still found the game very much playable... in fact, I even found it a lot more enjoyable.

Overall though level scaling is just plain annoying. Nothing is more satisfying than getting your butt kicked by an enemy at a low level, then being able to destroy it at a later level. And also nothing is more annoying than reaching level 30 just to find out that guard you found challenging at level one is STILL a challenge.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:04 pm

Without level scaling new complaints would come as well.
"I'm level 50 and the only things that can even take a sliver of my health bar down are sabre cats.. I mean wtf? I don't wanna fight saber cats all damn day..and don't tell me to go fight other stuff because I 1 or 2 shot everything else"
Thread titles-Level50=Ez mode, No level scaling?, god mode svcks, Bethesda why can't you get anything right?!, Full Daedric at lvl 5 :/

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:09 am

Also, you shouldn't start the game slaughtering bandits then spend the next 5 level-ups making potions to then return to the field and find that the same bandits that were so easy before are now tossing you around like a rag doll.

I appreciate that Skrim has done a better job at this than Oblivion (thank god!) but I don't think it is fixed yet.

You just basically explained why it is you're doing so badly.

You want to explain how it is that a guy who spends so much time leveling up from making potions should be badass in combat with swinging a sword?

Seriously?

You need to actually swing a sword once in a while to be decent at combat in the first place, this game bases its leveling on skill use, after all. Everything else scales accordingly the way it should, and you're expecting to best all them because you spent all your time getting stronger...at making potions.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:25 pm

Without level scaling new complaints would come as well.
"I'm level 50 and the only things that can even take a sliver of my health bar down are sabre cats.. I mean wtf? I don't wanna fight saber cats all damn day..and don't tell me to go fight other stuff because I 1 or 2 shot everything else"
Thread titles-Level50=Ez mode, No level scaling?, god mode svcks, Bethesda why can't you get anything right?!, Full Daedric at lvl 5 :/

Perhaps an option in the game opening to select if you want the world to scale or be static - if the modding community can do it I'm sure the game authors could include something like that as well.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Believe it or not but be thankful , skyrim did levelscaling correct. I'm a Morrowind fan aswell but it's true that you had to make 10 characters that each decide to 10 low level quests each. The most fun I had in Morrowind recently was staying at level 1 so every little cave could be deadly. This is so in Skyrim without me restricting myself , and yet we avoid bandits in daedric armor which was a killer for me literally and figuratively. I find that Skyrim still has the mystery of morrowind , I might have an easy time in a cave or I might stumble upon very dangerous enemies it varies alot.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:08 pm

You just basically explained why it is you're doing so badly.

You want to explain how it is that a guy who spends so much time leveling up from making potions should be badass in combat with swinging a sword?

Seriously?

You need to actually swing a sword once in a while to be decent at combat in the first place, this game bases its leveling on skill use, after all. Everything else scales accordingly the way it should, and you're expecting to best all them because you spent all your time getting stronger...at making potions.

You aren't following me, I'm talking about being able to fight the bandits in the same area after leveling up to find they got stronger at combat while my combat skills stayed the same. If I was able to kill them in 2-3 shots before why should it take 5-6 after I made some potions? I hope that makes sense.

It is not so bad as it was in Oblivion as I've see Drauger (spelling?) that have gotten steadily easier for me to kill. I've seen the scaling primarily on bandits and certain wild animals.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:44 pm

Why level scaling svcks:
Playing on master dif, completed like 90% of the game (every single cave etc)

-I' ve completed EVERY single dungeon i've been to until now with "ease" and i knew that monsters would scale with my level making them boring and predictable.
-As with enemy scaling, loot scaling makes looting tedious and predictable. Hell, i could guess what quality of gear each chest had or approximately how much gold it had.

Not to mention that there should be a sense of progression (don't tell me about how you broke the game with stacking buffs and felt "progressed") and the merchant inventory scaling is just plain stupid and pointless. What's the incentive the game gives you to earn money? Buy houses?

Also don't be fooled from those who say Morrowind and "many rpgs" had level scaling too. Their "scaling" was completely different and those who played Morrowind will know what i mean.
It's plain stupid to be able to kill a dragon at level 5, go in every single cave/ruin and already know that the enemies are on your level.
It's plain stupid to be challenged by "upgraded" bandits at level 50 and enemy casters learning new spells as soon as you hit a new level.
And about what the enemies wear - their stats change for god's sake, even if they wear the same stuff. Are people so easily fooled?

For those who say "the game will be linear/too easy if it did not have level scaling" only prove that they haven't played Morrowind or many other games that didn't have level scaling. Level scaling is just a lazy way to flatten everything and "balance" them to oblivion. It breaks immersion and it's extremely unrealistic.

You aren't following me, I'm talking about being able to fight the bandits in the same area after leveling up to find they got stronger at combat while my combat skills stayed the same. If I was able to kill them in 2-3 shots before why should it take 5-6 after I made some potions? I hope that makes sense.

It is not so bad as it was in Oblivion as I've see Drauger (spelling?) that have gotten steadily easier for me to kill. I've seen the scaling primarily on bandits and certain wild animals.

Yea the guy must mean that the enemies were training behind your back while you were brewing potions -.-
All the draugr being inside their coffins is a fluke. And the bandits hanging around their camps and stealing people is also a fluke. And some wild animals killing rabbits is a fluke as well.They secretly train behind your back.
Also the merchants get new inventory and gear when they deem you worthy of buying it (they check your character sheet).

Dynamic world lol :rolleyes:

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:58 am

The reason why they did dragons that way is probably because they wanted people to be able to unlock shouts and use them at any level since that's one of the main "things" about this particular game and story.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:03 pm

Everyone saying everything scales are liars. I am level 41 in a Dwemer ruin finding scaled/dwarven armor and one hitting Falmer.

You're WRONG. Barely anything SCALES. STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

I was fighting Falmer at level 7-8 wearing cloth and it took me a ton of tries to get the end...Archers were straight murking me. So there is the other side.