In all fairness, I think it was really reasonable for people to assume that magic was not going to work the way it does. I was totally under the impression that we would learn a spell, and then over the course of development that specific spell would become more powerful. Furthermore, I figured that we would simply learn different ways to cast that same spell. In other words, you just learn "Fire." Then later, you figure out how to do fireballs, fire DoT, Fire AoE, Flamethrowers, Traps, etc. All of these would essentially be variations on the same spell.

Then that would simply scale up as your skills and perks went up.

Instead, the system Bethesda made is this awkward hybrid of the new concept and the old. Old spells still become useless in time, which is dumb. To get stronger, you still need to find new spells, instead of just strengthening your existing ones. But at the same time, you can't craft the spell yourself, you only have the options that the game gives you, apparently crafted by an NPC somewhere that is far more powerful than we, the player character.

It just doesn't make any sense to do it that way.

Here's how the damage breaks down:
Daggers
New Dagger
Sharpen Dagger
Dagger Perks
Dagger Enchantments
Dagger Boost Potions (fortify)
Daggers Poisoned
Sneak Attacks

Destruction
New Spells - bad replacements
Sharpen Spells - nothing of the sort
Spell Perks - fewer than daggers
Destruction Enchantments - Don't increase damage
Destruction Boost Potions (fortify)
Magic "Poison" - nothing of the sort (that can be cast with magic)
No Sneak Bonus

Not really comparable.

Completely agree. Add to this the fact that the best Destruction spells are only competitively strong against enemies of maximum level 40, and you've got a bizarrely weak Destruction skill. There's so many possible fixes; let's hope Bethesda patch at least one of them in.

Welcome to destruction magic spells and how they have worked since Morrowind...

It makes perfect sense. Obsolescence is the name of the game in RPGs. Your starting equipment is not your ending equipment. Flames are the Mages' iron dagger.

Right so you find stronger and stronger daggers over time, and your dagger skill goes up over time. Both of those increase your dagger damage.

So in destruction, you should find newer and newer spells over time (which I interpreted as the new effects) and your skill should go up as well (interpreted as increasing damage with each spell).

However... it happens that neither of those are true. Bizarre.

I'm still using flames as my primary spell at level 10 - does it become useless eventually?

They're both true. They just operate a little differently. Flames gets replaced by fire bolt. And later fire wall is almost identical to the original flames with a new effect. And your skill going up lowers the mana cost instead of increasing the damage itself.

I still use the novice level firebolt spell (31 pts damage) against dragons.. Dual cast + impact = a stunlocked dragon that can't do anything but accept the beatdown it's being given.

I still think way to many people haven't picked up on how OP that combo is. I took down a frost dragon in less than 1 minute after it landed, using no pots, no potions, just with Impact perc and those little 31 damage firebolts dual cast into the super sayan stunball of firepunish.

But yeah.

Destro is broken /facepalm.

So is this whole Destruction svcks thing....mainly a level 40+ problem?

Ok, first I don't buy your claim that fire bolt replaces flames. They are fire spells, but they aren't the same. Besides that, I can sharpen my dagger too. I can also enchant my armor to increase my dagger damage.

Why can't I "sharpen" my flames spell? Why can't I enchant my robes to increase my flames damage?

Because the magic system isn't 1:1 identical to the weapon system. That's not to say that they don't both operate on classical obsolescence.

1) You can, with percs.

2) You can enchant your robe to descrease mana cost for destruction. While it doesn't increase your burst DPS, in does increase the amount of spells you can case, thereby upping your overall damage output.

I know, right? People also seem to gloss over the additional effects of destro spells:

Fire = Damage + additional damage to enemies on fire
Frost = Damage + drain stamina
Shock = Damage + damage/drain magicka

Dual casting ice spike gives me the damage, the stun, and I drain their stamina to the point where they have a hard time chasing me around, let alone kill me.

Perks also apply to daggers. In total, you get this:

Daggers
New Dagger
Sharpen Dagger
Dagger Perks
Dagger Enchantments
Dagger Boost Potions
Daggers Poisoned

Spells
New Spells - bad replacements
Sharpen Spells - nothing of the sort
Spell Perks - fewer than daggers
Spell Enchantments - Don't increase damage
Spell Boost Potions
Spell "Poison" - nothing of the sort (that can be cast with magic)

Not really comparable.


Ok, it's fine and good if they don't 1:1. But if you add up the numbers for a character at level 50, you find that it's something like 500:1 in favor of swords and daggers. Sure 1:1 is a little much to ask for, but the disparity we have right now is egregious.

Lastly, my final question is this:
Who exactly is it that can create a new spell in the TES universe? Who writes these tomes? Why can't the player do that?

Draughts of Destruction has proved useful for me, and I haven't "specialized" in Destruction either.

you forget, daggers get poisons, enhanced by shouts and sneak attacks

The Destruction perk goes like this:

If we take myself as an example... I'm a Fire mage, focusing heavly on Destruction, while also focusing somewhat into Conjuration and Restoration, with Enchantments.
At the start "Flames" is good, and its still good for a finisher when you are a Apprentice Destruction mage. However when you're a Apprentice, you focus mainly on Firebolt, etc, since it is your main damage and the novice spells being your secondary. Then get the Perk "Impact" and take the increase fire damage for an example. Stagger dem, while having 100% more fire damage. The enemy can never hit you, while you can just spam Firebolt at them, without really using that much Mana.

If the enemy is resistant to Fire, then its a good thing you got Lightning/Frost to use, or something else. Or else you would be at a disadvantage (A tip you get when talking to a Destruction teacher at the College)

Later on you get Fireball, Flame Cloak, etc, while you buff your Flame Atronach and never really waste alot of magicka in general, thanks to destruction cost reduction enchantment.

- You may never one shot them, but you rarely get hit anyway and Mages are not supposed to get hit in the first place compared to Thief and Warrior. If you run out of mana, use your last resort or kite/flee

It is also really handy to have Restoration/Alteration for healing and buffs. When you use your perk points into both of them, you can have better armor than Daedric armor set, but at the cost of magic and only last for 3 minutes.

I enjoy the way magic was handled in this game.

I truly did not enjoy creating new magic spells. I do miss spells like feather and open locks but other then that I give it all ++++'s

You do know that their are more spells then what the vendors sell right? Not being smart here...I just had the same concern as "these spells svck" until i unlocked some of the later aoe ones.

I liked creating new spells too, but I only really ever upgraded the spells that I used in the first place. I'll be the first to tell you that the Oblivion system of spellmaking was completely borked, but I think this new system is even worse.

They didn't fix the system, they just made the problem smaller by taking away options. I think that's the incorrect step. Also, I had no idea that the Unlock spell was gone. I hadn't gone looking for it yet because my character doesn't use it... but I still figured it existed in some form.

No?

Just hit Level 43 and Im really starting to struggle, has Bethesda made any comment on this issue?

Nope and I would be surprised if they did. This is why I ALWAYS buy the pc version because the modders will correct the issue and Beth knows it. Also, as usual, the fact that this is a HIGH END issue went over a lot of people heads in this thread. You will not notice the disparity much until/unless you go beyond 40 because your spells wont scale and you don't get new ones while npcs get stronger as you level.

Unfortunately my PC is almost an antique, I faintly remember something about mod support on consoles- did I imagine that?

This may actually be the case.

http://i43.tinypic.com/103egx4.jpg

I use fire spells a lot. Almost all kills are with fire. I don't use cheats or mods.
This may be a bug, or this may be some secret level scaling like you would assume. I can't be sure how to explain the damage of my fire spells, but I like it.

That's wild. I don't have any idea what causes that. My flames does 10 dps for 5 magicka.

I think it's always done 10. How did you manage that? You don't know?

I have no idea but it is my most used spell.

All my other spells look like you'd expect, so it may be a bug.