So just curious about something.

I'm an official member of the Stormcloaks, I've even been told by the leader himself to "cause trouble for the Imperials wherever you can". Okay, cool. Well I'm scouting out in the plains and come across an Imperial Fort. They are flying the colors and everything. The guard at the back gate tells me to back off, that I don't belong, and mentions he has to keep a look out for Stormcloak spies.

I think to myself, you've found one, pal! And then I put an arrow in his throat, quickly and silently killing him. Now, for the record, this NPC has no name, just "Imperial Soldier". Same as all the others inside the Fort I slip inside and kill. I finish clearing the Fort, Imperial bodies hanging off the battlements, when I check my Crime Statistics page and find that the game counted every single one of them as a "murder". I have no bounty since there were no witnesses left, but still.

I know that technically my character could be considered the equivalent of a medieval terrorist, but seriously! We are at war! I'm part of the rebellion! It just seems like the game is judging me against unfair criteria. It doesn't count those bandits I kill as murder, why Imperial Soldiers when I'm a Stormcloak? :confused:

Well, yeah. Skyrim is still controlled by the Empire, you filthy rebel.

Well in all fairness, Stormcloaks are criminals to the empire. The statistics page is merely biased to the empire :wink_smile:

Happened to me too.

I was on a Stormcloak mission where I had to intercept a courier so I waited for him outside an inn. When he came out a stormcloak guard attacked him so I joined in to kill the imperial, but then after he died the stormcloak attacked me as if I had murdered a civilian.

I guess they don't count bandits but count Imperial Soldiers because Soldiers are just doing their job, and by killing them you've broken a family. Yeah, that's right, feel guilty >:]

To be fair, the problem is more that bandits aren't being counted as murder, when really, they should. Criminals or not. They're still human. Definition of murder is pretty much the killing of another human being.

The empire does love their lists.


And think about it. From the games view, its still murder. Unprovoked killing of another. War or not. Its just that in the real world, the military is given special rules to allow them to do their job and not be held accountable for killing people.

Bandits dont count because they are naturally hostile to you. You are "defending" yourself from them.

and killing annoying insulting orcs count as summoning rainbows.
Wow, my unedited post had some really bad errors on them.......good thing I edited it.

Well, there goes anyone's justification to defend the system the way it's currently set up.

Well remember, Skyrim is under EMPIRE control for now. If the Stormcloaks were in charge, it would be different.

Well, traditionally it hasn't been considered murder if it is:

1. Self-Defense
or
2. War

And I don't really see the killing of the Imperial Soldiers as unprovoked. They and the Stormcloaks have already had a couple of major battles. The Stormcloaks are no longer a furtive group sneaking around and committing sabotage and trouble while talking dissent. They and the Empire have had full scale land battles at this point. I'd say that makes us officially at war.

I don't know, I'm not really talking about the morality of it (killing soldiers in their sleep in their military barracks really is morally indefensible) but more the fact that the game is imposing an outside judgment on you in the Crime Statistics page that seems to favor the Empire.

Thats actually realistic:

If you win, you are justice, if you lose you are treason and murder. Its the basic of every rebellion

The good guys dont always wins, but winning will always make you the good guys. In this game's political system, Imperials = the current "winners", the ones in power. So if you go against them, you are automatically the "bad guy".

EDIT to answer the post above:
This isnt a war, no matter what the peasants call it. Its a rebellion. They are VEEEEERY different, because in wars your opponent considers you a soldier, while in a rebellion you are simply considered a criminal/traitor.

Murder is not the simple act of killing, and those who think it is are simply wrong. Murder is the act of killing illegally. The distinction is very important, if sometims hard to discern.


Therefore, it makes sense for the Imperials to place a bounty on the player, as killing a soldier of their empire is illegal. For a Stormcloak guardsmen to turn on you and treat you as a murderer, however, is simply absurd.

The game system isnt set up to understand "war" and so it only does by the individual basis as always. Unprovoked = murder. Provoked = self defense.

Correct, and that is what the OP is complaining (for lack of a better term) about.

I like this explanation. It's what I'll keep in my head as I fight the good fight. Stormcloaks lose, I get a rope around my neck for the number of Imperial Soldiers I killed. Stormcloaks win, I get a medal around my neck for those same numbers.


Very true. I'm concerned the game may just look at the statistics page and determine I'm a murderer for triggering certain sidequests though. That would be stupid giving the circumstances of the killings.

EDIT: The game could very easily understand war. All you have to do is tell it to check if you are a member of one faction or another. Are those factions at war in the story? Don't count kills of the opposing faction against the player then.

Secessionist scumbag! Those were murders, since you assaulted them when they had no intention of killing you. If you don your treachorous rebel rags and wait for our soldiers to attack you, then you could clear the fort in self defense.

... unless you're an assassin, and a filthy rebel one at that :swear:

I am a filthy rebel assassin, a master of stealth and infiltration, and the best at what I do! I am the scout, the spy, the gatherer of information for the true High King Ulfric! Enemies of Skyrim see nothing but my shadow as it closes their eyes for the last time! :ninja:

Be happy you can get away with murder now (bounty), but killing off the witness'.
In previous versions, it was annoying as hell to get a bounty on you even if no one saw you do it.
But your reason for it counting is murder is simple, you started it. You were the first to do the violent act.

If the imperial is already being vocally aggressive (as you stated), just stick yourself in his face long enough, he should eventually attack first.
Then you are in the clear, it won't count as murder.

While the system HAS been improved, I fail to see why we should be satisfied with the current situation, when this oversight was easily within Bethesda's power to fix.

If this is a consular ship, then where is the ambassador?

Rebel Scum...

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being. So even though you are at war, yes it would still be called murder. No matter how good of a job you did :thumbsup:
Anyway, the Empire is still practically in control of Skyrim, so their laws apply. Doubly so for their troops

Can I just say, and only because it hasn't been mentioned already.

But perhaps it registers as a crime because as far as the system is concerned you are still a member of the Empire.

Think about it. You are still a citizen of Skyrim. You obviously don't agree with Imperial rule so you found a new political party to align with in the Stormcloaks. But in the ruling party's eyes you are considered a trairor to the Empire. So, when you kill an Imperial its considered a crime.

I've been playing since Morrowind, so yeah, I know how devastating bounties used to be for murder.

I get what you are saying, but provoking them or waiting for them to attack first is - forgive me - stupid. I'm a sneak/thief assassin. An Imperial Soldier would shred me in a one on one fight, and I would be a squishy red paste once his shouts brought reinforcements. No military agent infiltrating an opposing enemy camp or base is going to want to alert the base to his presence by provoking the enemy to attack him so he can assuage his morality with the excuse that it was self-defense. Besides, it can easily be argued that if you INTEND to provoke the enemy so they will attack you, it is no more self-defense than stabbing them in the back.

You never gave them surrender terms, filthy rebel. lol
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