Orcish kingdom of Orsinium loses the status of Imperial territory (Land) not talking about the race. If you read books in many tes games on goblins they say the same thing about the goblin terrortory. Orc Race still didnt get reconized by the other races as a people. I guess goblins even have a shaman and a king means they are like the other races of tamriel and the races of tamriel seen goblins like them. pretty much what you guys are saying. The high elves gave the goblins places to live and use them as slaves in summerset isles they are now a people of tamriel.(<-Sarcasm) Orcs werent seen as a people in this time until daggerfall.

This might not be entirely relevant, but in regards to Tengen's point, I read an interesting article yesterday about how American culture dipped into a 'nadir' in the early 20th century where there was a rise of radicalism and an increase in bigotry/racism/hardline christianity that was not present before that. We like to think of tolerance and progress as being on a constantly upward slope, but we can clearly see spikes in racism and bigotry in our own history. I think that, just because people saw Orcs as sub-humans after a certain point, doesn't mean they necessarily saw them as sub-humans before that point.

Yes, specially since it takes place in a dark period of lore in which we don't know what all happened. People are so stuck on what has happened in recent games, that they ignore the fact that this game is set before any TES game ever. Im pretty sure the Lore Masters from Bethesda who are working with Zen know a LOT more about the lore and how they can twist it ( like they always do) than anything we can dig up on the "internetz".

I agree with you on that statement and been saying that to people about this lore and how zenimax is twisting it now. People is basing this like real history then a fake lore that can be twist around how ever the company wants it to be. reason why im little upset with these fractions and how they set them up. I really feel they set these fraction up they way they are to make it easy for the players to have a fraction on each corner of the tamriel map and making a lore story to justify it.

The only way to treat TES history is to treat it as a real history.
When one disseminates the lore one can postulate and hypothesise, and this is always closest to the monkey-truth of things when known factors from our own political and historical landscape are applied.

The Orsimer were a recognised Imperial territory under the potentates.
From this fact we can glean that there was at least a limited interaction between Orsinium and the other races.
This interaction would take the form it always does, trade and treaty.

Racism has never stopped people from mutually agreeing on a border or a trade agreement, though it is often a factor for the more powerful side to take the advantageous position.

The lore is the lore.
There are many people on this site who are really very knowledgable about these things, similarly as there are people who might tell you what happened year to year in the second era of Tolkien's Middle Earth.

The concensus is that the events of the MMO do not break lore for several reasons.
The main one is that there is very little known about the time period of the events.
There are many secondary reasons of varying degree of esotherics, but it all boils down to that it is not impossible for nations to behave like this, albeit improbably in some cases. Then again, our own history shows a remarkable number of unlikely situations and alliances.

Except that the Orsimer worship Malacath who by Triune doctrine is a part of the House of Troubles.

Really, you might want to delve a bit into the actual lore before you declare one thing more friendly to it then the other.

Im sorry but you are so so wrong on the orcs..lol im sorry

even the so claim you presented even says Orcish kingdom of Orsinium loses the status of Imperial territory (Territory, Land) not the orcish race. you need to play the game again and learn. I dont think you played Daggerfall. Orcs were seen not as a people yet!!! you dont know what your talking about

I dont think this is really that worthy of a response, but I am curious, its a vice.

I dont understand what your point is.
The sheer fact that the land where the Orsimer people lived is a recognised Imperial territory means that the people that live there are a political, military and trade faction in the same sense that High Rock or Skyrim are, surely?
This because that is what the term means.

By inference this must mean that there was at least trade and military treaty.

What you say about Daggerfall is simply nonsense.
Racism against a people does not mean nor has it ever that in reality people are animals, it seems to be what you imply.

As shown, Orsinium was an Imperial territory up until close to the events of the MMO.
Therefore, Orsimer at that time were a recognised sentient race.

Events of the third era are simply irrelevant in this.
For all we know a lot of the hatred against the Orsimer comes from the very events of the MMO.

The in-game lore on Orcs changed between Daggerfall and Morrowind. But that's a change from game to game, not to the "lore."

The historical "fact" is that Orcs were indeed seen to be people prior to the time of Tiber Septim.

there is no point in argueing with you when you havent played daggerfall. use and twist the lore into your own opinion. People that jusitify there opinion by twisting the lore into there own favor is ignorant. Ovessly you dont know the lore as you think and any one that says so you make your self the king of the lore and knows the lore better then any one else when fact that any one can read up on the lore and actually play the game (daggerfall) and learn for them selves. Im done talking to ignorant people. so think they way you do but the fact is your wrong and play the actual game and actually learn then going on the internet and read the lore and twisting it around for your own favor

I played Daggerfall. I have it on my game PC even now, and still go back to it from time to time. The events of Daggerfall occur about 40 years before Morrowind. Do you seriously think that the Orcs went from "not people" to "people living all over Morrowind" in 40 years?

Obviously there was an adjustment to the Lore to allow Orcs as people (and as playable characters.) That adjustment consists of the lore regarding the fall of Orsinium, the hatred of Tiber Septim for the Orcs, etc.

so you are saying if the goblins that are spread across tamriel gets accepted as a people from the empire and become a playable race then they were always a people. ok i understand your point. lol if you do play daggerfall then have fun. i wont argue with you any more..lol..lol