We know that ESO will have 24 man content (i.e. raiding and I think its silly they don't call it as such, but whatever).

A few days ago, I was discussing it with another Raid leader friend of mine whether 24/25 man Raiding leads to a toxic community. We both came to the same conclusion that it does. I have been Raid Leader for multiple 25-man raids in WoW. Basically there are only 3 types of 25 man Raiding guilds. First is the rare and hyper organized guilds that can assemble 25 people with no problem. That's SUPER RARE and generally does not happen.

Then it is the type of guilds that I was usually part of. The ones that typically have 25 people who Raid consistently. Unfortunately, when its 24/ 25 people there will be always people who cant make it and then the nightmare begins. There were nights that I had to spam chat for 2 hours and not get a qualified people for Raiding. NOT A FUN PROCESS, which is why I think 25 man Raiding is bad. I have been in many top guilds in WoW and typically people would not be able to show up because of birthdates or other real life stuff. Then you have to spam chat for hours and many times cancel the Raid altogether. Its a terrible process.

There is only 1 type of guild that can do 25 man Raiding without huge problems and that's when it uses people as substitutes (i.e. not regular Raiders). Unfortunately, having people on the sidelines is not a good thing for the community. Its kinda of a [censored] thing to do (i.e. you are only going to Raid when we need you, otherwise get lost) and it does not create a good MMO community. Its a lot more cut-throat and ESO does NOT need that. I have experienced guilds with substitutes and its not a good thing. It will be really bad for the games community. ESO needs systems that lets people play together not be a cut-throat competition of who is going to Raid tonight and who is going to be left out. Not to mention the endless drama that it leads to. You just end up with a toxic community. Bad bad bad idea.

I feel very strongly that the ideal Raid size is 10 or 12. I am a little bit disappointed that ZOS says it wants to implement 24 man group content, when it has so many drawbacks. Ten or Twelve people is big enough to feel epic and you don't get the problems (toxic and cut-throat community or severe difficultly in finding replacements) that 24 man Raiding necessitates.

If ZOS does implement 24 people Raiding, I hope that they at least develop systems to accommodate that. For example an easy to use and detailed Board of people who want to Raid (and for which Raids) along with their stats and experience. Also maybe allow guilds to put a group of (lets say) 6 people together and then have a tool in-game that allows you to list your group for available Raids. This way its would be easier for a 24-man Raid Leader to recruit a lot of people at once for a Raid. Things of that nature. Otherwise, I am pretty confident that you will end up with a pretty toxic Raiding community. NOT a good thing. ---

I can't find two or three people that I want to hang around in a game, not going to be doing any Raiding I suppose.

MMOs in general lead to toxicity. I wouldn't really pin the blame on large group raiding, you see just as much of all the same issues in large scale PvP too.

What makes it toxic are people who recruit toxic players. Raid sizes has nothing to do with it. 10 man raids can be and are just as toxic. It is not hard to find 24 people who can play together with respect.

Did it for 7 years in WoW. Sure you will have awful people in those raid groups. Step up as a leader and tell them to knock it off or deal with that type of attitude. I've dealt with people like this as an officer of raiding guilds for years and they will show up no matter what the raid size is.

Really disliked the raid mentality in WoW. And I agree with the OP that 10 to 12 man content is enough. In the end it was the raid guilds that made me quit playing WoW.

Yeah same here has been my experience. Its all in who you let into the guild and how closely you keep things in check. Been raiding since vanilla WoW 40-man days and have to say i don't really share the views of the OP. I mean sure it svcks when people don't show up but again that is made easier to deal with by planning ahead and recruiting the proper type and amount of players. That has nothing to do with raid size, its simply a function of organizing people.

Its true that online games generally lead to toxicity. Have you heard of Gabriels Greater Internet [censored]wad Theory?

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215499488_8pSZr-L-2.jpg

Nevertheless, an MMO can have systems that promote or inhibit toxicity. For example, in WoW whoever hits a mob first get exclusive rights to the kill and loot. This creates a toxic mentality of first-hitting mobs faster than other people. So if you are questing and there are other people in the area, you need to rush to get first-hit on the quest mobs before the other people. This system, without question, creates toxicity.

Similarly, and for the reasons I have described above, 24-man Raiding is a toxic system and bad for the community as a whole.

Yeah, I think that 10 to 12 man Raiding content is far less toxic. First of all you don't need to designate people as substitutes, so there is no cut-throat drama or being a douchebug and keeping people on the sideline for when you need them. Also with 10 to 12 man raiding, even if a couple of people don't show up, it much easier to recruite a few more from the general population, so resentment is not created when people cant show for Raiding because off real life issue. Furthermore, it is faster and easier to assemble 10 to 12 person Raids which makes the experience less toxic and frustrating for everyone.

A system of 10 or 12 people Raiding has less drama, is less cut-throat and less toxic overall.

Ironically, 40 man Raiding is less toxic than 24/25 man Raiding. 40-man raids are typically easier to assemble by spamming chat because they are typically a lot easier. Lots of people can die in a 40-man Raid and still succeed. Conversely, in 24/25 man Raiding you have to vet each person thoroughly, because each person is a lot more important. In previous MMOs you typically could not easily recruit people for 25 man Raid just by spamming chat.

I have been a Raid leader for both 40 man Raids in WoW and 25 man Raids. I remember how much easier it was to recruit people for Mags Lair (40 man Raid) than for IC 25 and still succeed. In other word's for Mags Lair I didn't really have to vet people and could just pick people from general chat, but if I did that for IC 25, we were sure to fail. 40 man raids are usually designed for lots of people to die and still succeed, 24 man raids are designed a lot more hardcoe with far less mistakes allowed. You definitely need to have a solid group for 24/25 man Raiding.

So actually, 24/25 man Raiding is the WORST RAID SIZE POSSIBLE. Not large and easy enough to just recruit people from general chat (without extensively vetting them) and not small enough to avoid the toxicity that comes with 24/25 man Raiding.

There's no reason for anyone to be side-lined. Have more than 24 people in your guild. When you set up a raid, the first 24 who show up go with you. If there are enough people, they can set up a second raid group.

Also, the reason they don't call them raids is because they aren't. You can go into an Adventure Zone solo if you want. You can go into an adventure zone with a four man group. Which areas you can actually complete/survive is dependent on how big of a group you have though, of course.

You won't all be together taking down some giant boss. There are going to be tasks to complete and you will have to strategically break up the party to do them.

That's why you don't PuG raids. Wont have this issue.

THIS is the kind of thinking that leads to toxicity. Its a freaking game. Not a job in the CIA. You don't need to do a criminal back ground check on people before playing with them.

As a former Raid Leader I assure you with 100% certainty that if you don't vet people in 25 man Raiding YOU WILL FAIL. Typically 25-man Raids are hardcoe enough that not everyone can do them. You NEED a certain amount of DPS and a certain amount of healing and you need the tank to be strong enough in order to successfully complete 25-man Raids. If you don't like it, blame it on the MMO companies that typically make 25-man Raiding difficult enough that vetting is required.

Of course if 25-man Raiding was easier, everyone would clear it and then there would be nothing else to do.

Not Pugging is actually the problem with 25-man Raiding. I guess you didn't read the Original Post.

The problem with 25 people is that there will be always a lot of people who cannot make the Raids because of real life issues. (10-12 person Raids typically do not have that problem, even if only a couple of people are missing, that's easy to replace). Therefore, many 25-man raiding guilds put people on waiting lists to have as back-up (basically telling them that they will not Raid until they need them). This leads to a cut-throat, and toxic community. On the other hand, 40-man Raids are typically pugguable and thus a lot less toxic, but they take so long to put together that I think that most people with 40-man experience will agree that 40-man Raids are not an ideal size.

Well sounds like then the WoW LFR system would have been great for you. Sounds like you either don't join or run really organized or well run guilds if you constantly have to draw from the general public to fill out a raid. So yeah seems to me the real issue for you here isn't the size of the raid, but the type of guild/raids you run and join. Just being honest there.

The guild I was in was a well organized casual leaning raid guild, and it was few and far between that we ever had to pull from outside the guild to fill a raid. When we did it was generally people we already knew on our friends lists or other guilds we were friendly with. So again it just takes a little planing and organization and the whole process becomes so much easier and less stressful.

Are you high?

I was actually Raid Leader in a very organized, top-server guild that run 10 people Raids and it was perfect. I know from personal experience that 25 man Raiding is toxic when compared to 10 man Raiding. Organization has NOTHING to do with it. In fact, 10 persons Raids need to be MORE organized than 25 persons Raids because in 10-mans, no one can die.

Just because the number is lower doesn't mean it's any less toxic.

All I'm seeing here is someone who hates 24 man raiding and trying to say they are bad. Sorry, they aren't.

Well, I explained why 24-man raiding is more toxic than 10 man, and I think I explained it pretty well. If you are going to present a different point then use an actual counter argument. Don't just say, "its less toxic because I say it is" lol.

Toxic Communities are Developer made, if you make something easy to obtain, nobody cares if they loose it. Make something hard and toxic people think befor the do anything, because the could loose there stuff. Also that applies to a raid group, if you are a good Raid Group, people will not be toxic, because they dont want to be left out of it. If something happens like 10 wipes on a boss, they wil just say [censored] happens lets try it again. Every Player can be toxic and frustration brings it out really fast, just look at League of Legend.

Any online game can be "toxic", it doesn't matter whether you have group of 5 or 100 people, jerks can be found everywhere. If you can't find a guild with good leader and officers that kick idiots from the guild when they constantly disrespect guild members or cause drama then it's your problem OP. In years of my experience with all kinds of MMOs I've always found awesome guilds with good leadership, it's not a hard thing to do.

Well the way you made it sound like, you had to PuG spots to fill your raids all the time. Doesn't sound like something a well organized top server guild needs to do.

Bottom line, if you personally find small raids easier to manage and organize then fine stick to those. But as I and others point out we find little to no issue with running and maintaining a large raid group. Thats got nothing to with 24/25 man raids being "Toxic" or w/e, thats simply personal preference.

Nope its personal opinion what you are spouting. There is no physical proof that 24 mans are more toxic.

Please learn the difference between opinion and facts.

If 24/25-man is toxic, then what is 40-man?!

Played a lot of Vanilla/TBC WoW, and 40-man raids were no issue whatsoever. It is, as has been pointed out already, all about organization and playing with people you know.

PUGs tends to be bad quite often, but that is simply how it gets when you put 24-40 random people together. With organized Guild raids, I have never experienced it to be "toxic".

We rarely had problems with having enough people for the 40-man raids either, as we had a guild roster of about 50-60 active max-lvl people.

Edit: And then comes PvP in Warhammer Online... About 100 players or so, and still not toxic. We all had our roles, and we played accordingly. Sure there is some complaining now and then, but that is to be expected.

This was with a guild of about 50, and the rest being randoms.

"It takes more than 25 people to make a 25 man raid party"