My only complaint. Show me a person who can't walk backwards very slowly from something running towards him and shoot it, and I'll show you a very dead archer/crossbowman/musketman/rifleman.

Making it impossible to walk backwards is a bad idea. Is that feature modifiable?
I may not be able to hit the broad side of a barn in real life, but a master archer should be able to be dead on accurate even while walking backwards.

thanks for the input.
i do appricate you letting me know your thoughts so that I can configure the ini file to what *most* people want in future releases.

But to answer your question . . .
Every feature can be enabled/disabled and scaled(where it makes sense) in the ini file.

Personally I found it way to easy dodge enemies with an arrow nocked (even with a no backwards running mod). So I added options that can keep you from running with an arrow nocked or moving backwards at all. Again they are all configurable with the ini file to fit your prefference.

-dan

I've been testing out version 4 and I absolutely love the new feature that forces denock when an enemy is close. This mod now has all the features I've ever wanted from an archery mod, and I've wanted this for a long time so thank you very much.

My first character was a bosmer archer who pwned everything with his bow because of the (in my view) broken vanilla archery settings. For that reason I've kept my self from using bows. Now I think I'll finally be using bows with my characters again. :thumbsup:

Thanks, glad to hear you are enjoying it as much as I am.

If you wouldn't mind giving some feedback on your ini settings that would be awesome. Do the defaults work for you or did you feel the need to tweak them?

-dan

Yup. I've only changed 2 settings:

;default 5
set xdanMarksmanChallenge.BaseOffset to 1.5

;default 1.5
set xdanMarksmanChallenge.Marksman_Skill_Exponent to .8


I tested using characters with different Marksman level to see how well these settings work at all skill levels. I'm fairly happy about these settings but I should probably test some more to be sure.

Do you use the "take aim" feature? I'm wondering if I should incorporate "take aim" into base offset.

I imagine there are two ways to look at -
(1) You don't want to low level marksman to have to ""carefully aim a shot"(ie hold still for a while with the arrow nocked) , so the user disables "take aim" and they will get the base offset in the 1.5 range

(2) If you want a low level marksmen to have to "carefully aim a shot" then enable take aim and base offset will be multipplied by (2 or 3). This is mitigated by the take aim bonus when you hold the arrow for a long time.


All of these will still be configurable of course, just set the default base_offset based on wether or not "take aim" is enabled

-dan

Well, if you're making it all configurable (which is good) then my comment is redundant but here it is:

I just tested the take aim feature and it works very well. It's balanced enough I think. The best part of it is that if you're no good at marksman you still have a chance to hit with a poisoned or magical arrow that you really need to hit with.
I do not think it's a good idea to incorporate the take aim bonus, because I feel it is a very good thing that when not choosing Marksman as Major Skill you cannot really do much with a bow. The only thing you can really do is to wait for the charging enemy to get close for you to be almost sure to hit, fire the arrow and then pull out your sword. I think this is important to keep it like that.
Once you get better (higher Marksman skill) you should be able to hit your enemy several times before they close on you. I think the balance is about right now.

:thumbsup:

Well i finally tried it, and i have to say that i really enjoyed it. Archery felt so much more realistic, and fun to do. So now more trying to shoot a bow at close range. It really brought me to actually use more tactics. So a very fun experience, and a definite keeper in my load order. Also i just wanted to know if this mod is script intensive. It seemed that my recent play trough was less smooth...(just wondering )

Script intensive? Not really. It does call a few animations to implement staggering. That may make the game *appear* clunky.

Other than that the longest execution route (when an arrow is released) is about 15 Comparisons and 20 lines of execution that includes some OBSE math functions but this is only one frame and given that it only acts on one object thats not a lot of math. There is no refference available for how long (or how many CPU cycles a particular scripted command takes to execute) so I can't give a real answer. You could try disabling staggering and see if that makes it appear more smooth. If that fixes it please let me know, and I'll see what I can do optomize the stagger code path. It is the newest and hasn't really been looked over well yet.

You might also want to try Oblivion Stutter Remover. It really is amazing.

sorry I can't offer more help

-dan

kandiedan: I've got an FCOM setup. This covers different ground to FCOM_Archery right (which I'm not using atm)?

I've never used archery before, but am thinking of starting a new archer character, and am wondering what (in your view) is the best mod config for archery in FCOM. I'd like archery to be challenging but fair I suppose!

So FCOM_Archery plus this? If I recall correctly you also made some new FCOM archery plugins as well?

Thanks for any input mate

so does the alpha 4 release fix the problem were you would fire an arrow at an enemy that was to close and it wouldn't hit them? Because i tried this mod and loved it before, but that part made me switch since it stopped me from hitting people at times, so Ive been sticking with a bow sway mod, but i like the features of this mod more and would like to upgrade to it. Also the stagger system in the new version sounds great!! if that problem is fixed ill defiantly have to try this out again!

hehe, you picked the right person to ask that question.
I'm also rebalancing FCOM_Arhcery for the next FCOM version and including all the stuff that was missed before (SI, Some Frans,MMM, and adding Armamentarium/Artifacts support).

I would say use this mod with the default values. It makes Archery VERY VERY hard. YWhen you start out, you're going to have to aim all your shots for like 5-10 seconds to have a good chance of hitting something. If thats to hard core for you, tone down base_offset in the ini file.

FCOM_Archery - Short answer(long answer below). All this does is increase damage of some Bow/Ammo, my mod doesn't effect Damage at all so they are completly compatible. I love the increased bow damage (espically with this mod) as it really turns a bow into a sniper weapon, not a meele weapon.

Also, you are going to be hitting a lot less targets with your bow now, so you need to increase the speed at which your marksman skill levels up. The next release is going to fix this by giving you more experience the longer you hold your bow for. Untill then I suggest using progress to increase the marksman advancement rate (if you're aren't already, check it out it is an amazing mod).


FCOM_Archery (long answer). It increases bow damage. A little history. Frans/MMM use MOBS balancing system. OOO (and therefore FCOM) use OMOBS balancing system. THEY are VERY different. in MOBS bow/ammo are approx 40% more powerfull that OMOBS. With FCOM *most* bow/ammo are OMOBS balanced but some were missed (mostly SI and some Frans). FCOM_Archery returns *most* Bow/Ammo to MOBS stats, but unfortunitly it missed some stuff as well. I've created a couple of patches (one that has all Bow/Ammo OMOBS based, and one that brings everything back up to ~ MOBS stats while preserving OMOBS speed/durability). If you want to help me beta test for the new FCOM_Archery PM me and i'll get you the DL linky.

-dan

Had no idea people where having this problem. This is the first report I have seen

I did not play that much on alpha 3 as I went straight into alpha 4 development for my gameplay. I never noticed that problem in my 40+ hours of gameplay on alpha 4, but i was also did not fighting close range with the bow very much due to the new stagger. Alpha 4 handles detection and correction of fired arrows much faster than alpha 3, and since I never noticed it in alpha 4 I hope it is fixed . . .

I'd love for you to try alpha 4 and if the problem is still there, let me know. I'll get it fixed for you.

-dan

thanks for the great response, kandiedan.

It makes sense then that if you're using this mod, which is going to make actually *hitting* a target significantly harder and reduce the rate at which you can hit targets with arrows, then you'd want to up the damage a bit so it all balances out. So arrows are more deadly when they hit but you can't just spam them out like vanilla.

I'd be happy to try out your beta FCOM_Archery plugin, but do keep in mind I've not used archery much at all in vanilla, so won't have a strong knowledge base for comparison. That ok?

hmm i thought that when i was going to report the problem before i had seen somebody already had reported it. Oh well, anyways ya i only noticed it in close quarters, but i had thought at first i was just missing, until i shot a bandit while he was sleeping and it missed somehow when i was point blank and held the arrow knocked for a couple of seconds. anyways ill check it out soon, hopefully within the hour if i can get a chance to, and report back to you.

Alright, so i checked it out and I haven't had that problem so far, i have not extensively tested but when i had the problem before it wasn't something that only happened every once in a while, more like every time i was to close, so i don't think extensive testing is necessary. Anyways I'm going to fine tune my ini to my likings and ill make sure to inform you of any problems that appear, or if i get any ideas.

Does this affect NPCs?

Im pretty sure it doesnt.

No. NPC aim is already pretty bad, no reason to nurf them even more.

-dan

I agree. I can still pretty easily win a one-vs-one archery fight vs an NPC, but with this mod the fight at least becomes a bit more intense and involving. So I appreciate this mod.

I've never seen the NPCs do something like nock an arrow and run backwards anyway.

I've yet to have the nerve to try this with Duke Patrick SCA Archery - where the goal is to never get hit anyway.

With Duke Patrick Archery the bows are so upped in damage that it is frightening. iron bows can do 20-30, steel bows 40-60, specialized bows (goblin, arctic) 100-130 - and that is not counting arrows. 2 shots and your dead (if under level 10) and forget about it if they hit you form behind with the rest of Duke's mods.

The last thing you'd ever want to do with that kind of damage is get into a bow and arrow shoot out - especially with more than one opponent. Better off zig zagging to dodge the arrows and slicing them quick. Then use bows for the first offense only or if perched up on a ledge - need to use far more strategy with Duke involved.

The newest FCOM Achery beta that I am working on, includes an even higher damage option (2x OMOBS damage) that could be fun with this mod. I need more playtime testing but try it out if it sounds interesting to you. Released in this thread . . .
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1032482

-dan

Thanks, nice mod! I think it would feel more realistic with a very slight bow sway (that goes away when you take time to aim).



Where exactly are we supposed to download those esps?

Oh and BTW, I PM'ed you.

You could combine it with this for bow sway (it can be adjusted to whatever you want) - http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15777

I didn't like the bow sway mods because they move your camera and not just the crosshair. Instead I increased the amount of error in the marksman challenge ini.

Zumbs has been fixed so that a patch is no longer required, just get the latest version of Zumbs OBSE.

here's the tempoary link to the COBL denock fix.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/jy5m5yzhw0i/COBL_DeNock_Fix.7z
I'll include a denock option in future releases so people don't have to use the COBL one or use another esp.



Plans for next version . . .
Gameplay Changes
1) If "Take Aim" is enabled you will increase your marksman skill while aiming.
2) Wind effects are out unless I hear that people are using it. It seemed cool when I was starting but i think it is useless
3) Add DeNock key to this mod.
4) Rework the stagger time checks to use the actual bow speed instead of a fixed number as bow speed can range from .85 to 1.1


I want to make this easier to configure, so I'm going to cut down on the configuration options a lot.
1) Base offset will be tied into "Take Aim". People that don't use "take Aim" will have a lower Base offset, (but of course they can't aim to improve their shot or get marksman experience).
2) Changeing all the config options into a single "easy", "medium", and "hard" - It occurs to me that having linear equations in the Readme/ini files of my mods might be a bit much math for most people to bother understanding what they are changing. You can still enable/disable features but no more math for the individual settings (advanced users will still have the option of downloading and using the complete ini file).
2a) Along those lines, please post your current ini file for me so I have a larger sample size of what people use.

Any other ideas about marksman that this mod should add? Hopefully the next version will be the final Beta.

Bow Sway - I never liked Bow Sway because is made be dizzy and was not random. Making it random is easy, making it move just the bow and not the camera . . . I have no clue how to do.

-dan