People have already talked a lot about master level destruction spells being mostly useless. I think master level illusion spells are even MORE useless.

This is because dual casting does not seem to affect the level of enemy they affect (correct me if I'm wrong on that btw).

The result is that dual cast lower level illusion spells can hit higher level enemies with a lower mana cost and do it at range without the 5 second charge up.

Let me give an example:

Let's compare the Master level Mayhem spell with the Adept level Frenzy spell. At its base, Mayhem affects level 25 enemies. The Rage perk adds 12 levels, while Kindred Mage adds 10. This means Mayhem affects up to level 47 when fully perked out. Pretty good, and that will affect most enemies, but there will certainly be ones above that. Meanwhile, Frenzy has a base level of 14. You then add the 22 from Rage and Kindred Mage and you get to 36. When you dual cast, the level is slight more than doubled. I don't know the exact number, so we will just say it's doubled. This means a dual cast Frenzy spell can affect up to level 72, much higher than Mayhem's level 47 cap.

But dual casting makes spells cost more. So maybe dual cast Frenzy costs more than Mayhem. Nope. I've read that dual casting either multiplies mana cost by 2.4 or 2.8. Let's just assume 2.8 in order to err on the side of making Mayhem look better. Frenzys base mana cost is 183. That means it would have a base cost of 512 when dual cast. Mayhem has a base cost of 868.

So Frenzy will affect enemies that are 25 levels higher, while costing 60% of the mana that Mayhem costs. It can also be cast at range (allowing for more stealth usage) and does not take 5 seconds to cast. It is CLEARLY a better spell.


But let's put it in the worst possible situation. That is, let's say neither Kindred Mage nor Animage apply to the given enemy. This means dual casting can't double those level boosts. In this case, Frenzy would affect up to level 52 (base of 14 plus 12 from Rage, all multiplied by 2). Meanwhile, Mayhem would only affect up to level 37 (base of 25 plus 12 from rage). Quite simply, Mayhem CANNOT hit the same level as a dual cast Frenzy spell and it will always cost more mana.


The hilarious thing is that even the NOVICE spell Fury is better than Mayhem most of the time. It has a base level of 6. Add 12 from Rage and 10 from Kindred Mage, and it hits level 28. Multiplied by 2 when dual cast, and it will hit level 56, higher than 47 for Mayhem with the same perks. Meanwhile, that dual cast spell will literally cost less than 20% of the mana of Mayhem. Yes, Fury will only hit a single target, but it is ranged, so you can stay out of sight and the one enemy you used Fury on will typically start a big fight anyways.

Even if you assume you're fighting non-people/animal enemies, Fury is still similarly effective to Mayhem. Dual cast, it will affect level 36 (base of 6 plus 12 from rage, multiplied by 2). Meanwhile, Mayhem affects up to level 37 in that case.


This same logic applies to ALL the master level illusion spells (ie. calm and fear as well). In fact, I chose the frenzy line because it is the one that would SEEM to most need the master level spell, since it is the only one without an expert level spell.


EDIT: I'm not sure if dual casting ALSO affects duration. It really isn't a big deal either way, but if it DOES affect duration, then Frenzy would also have a longer duration than Mayhem, while Fury would likely be the same duration.

Good anolysis. I think Beth dropped the ball for the most part on magic this time around. Not enough spells and no spell maker. Hoping mods or DLC or future patches fix it. Thieving and Warrior playstyle is better than ever. Mages get less love..

Bump for being interesting.

Interesting indeed.

Mayhem hits more than one target? I haven't reached that level of Illusion yet.

If that is the case, then I would say the spell (Mayhem) works just fine as you are paying for the convenience of affecting more than one enemy at a time.

Take into consideration how many targets you can hit with Mayhem and compare its magicka cost with the total cost to cast Frenzy that many times. I think that might be how the spells were balanced.

My two cents.

I've not worked my illusion skill up on my mage (and frankly, it's entirely worthless without perks) but this is really disappointing. How did nobody working on the systems see this through?

Yea, but there aren't that many enemies ever attacking you at once. Furthermore, you don't need to frenzy the whole room, just find the toughest enemy in the room and give him a fury. He'll probably clear it out by himself.

Also, Fury is single target, but I believe Frenzy is ranged but seems to have an area of effect around the enemy you actually hit. So in terms of area of effect vs. single target, I believe it's in the same boat as Mayhem.

I think this video illustrates how Frenzy works in this way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjblBDIFdw

Yup. This is one of the many places they epic failed in game design. As an aside the fear spells once perked for it are also better at turning undead than the turn undead spells since none of the turn undead spells benefit from dual casting.

I think you will find, all master spells are inferior to their expert/adept counterpart ha, mostly due to dual casting and the annoying charge time (which usually breaks if your hit).

I am a big user of illusion, dual casting adept (or even the stage before adept) spells for me works on all enemies I come across (level 52), then just go invisible and watch them rip each other apart ha, maybe shoot a few arrows.

They need to sort out quite a few things with magic, especially destruction and the master spells.

I agree with the person who said Bethesda dropped the ball with magic this time round. It's just all so underwhelming and when you finally get those Master spells it's just like.. is that it?

Yup.
I guess it was a choice of pretty and no substance over what made the series succesful in the first place, an in depth spell system.
For me that would have been a no-brainer, but there you go.

I don't see why anyone would put points into Illusion in the first place, but that's just me.

There are plenty of ways to get the benefits of that tree without putting points into it.

And, btw, I love the spells in this game.

You can't use the manipulation spells at higher levels without the perks. If its just for invisibility then don't bother with the perks.

I think its purposely like that. Most of the lower illusion spells only affect one person at a time while with one of these spells you can affect the entire general area, but to balance it out the spell is a bit weaker than its counterparts.

Most master spells are useless. Look at destruction... all 3 are garbage compared to expert spells.

Pretty much this. I haven't found a Master spell worth using over its Expert level counterpart thus far, for a variety of reasons. Alteration's Dragonskin doesn't last long enough, doesn't get the dual casting duration bonus, and you still get one shot by draugr deathlords on adept. Cast times are too long for uninspired effects for Destruction, you're better off casting incinerates. You outrun your summons in Conjuration so you might as well resummon atronachs/dremora's each fight anyway. I can go on.

Actually, with a "-100% Destruction cost" effect or close to it, the master lightning spell allows you to kill dragons before they even land because it got a HUGE range.

Frenzy, calm, and fear are effects you can't really get elsewhere and they can be quite fun.


Hmm well if you are actually always successful with dual cast adept or apprentice illusion spells, then it would appear the math I used in the original post is actually correct. Master spells clearly need to be fixed. Or rather, just allow us to have spell creation.